Ressurection and Drama "Don't worry, we'll rez you after this"

[Scribble]

I've never really felt compelled to run a game where ressurection was "just another spell on the list..." I think the idea that you can just pay gold and bring someone back to life does, as you say kind of cheapen the human condition...

I don't advocate getting rid of it, but I'm not a huge fan of the various spell lists being literally translated into the game as is... IE everyone knows the resurrection spell is the resurrection spell. If one guy knows it, and he casts it, it will be the same as how another guy knows and casts it...

For me spell lists are kind of general ideas about what is possible in the game world.

Resurrection is surely possible in a fantasy world, but just because it's listed in the list of rituals doesn't mean you can just take it, or it works exactly like that.

I think if used right, resurrection spells can actually be a poignant reminder of the human condition.

Some people might know of a resurrection spell that works through dark magic. Maybe a blood sacrifice is needed, or some other suitable sacrifice.

Other times if the player takes it, the character might not actually even "know" it's a spell he can cast, it only comes up during suitably dramatic times... Like a character dies, and the priest begs his god to right the unfairness of the death-

Or it's just worked into a suitably dramatic unexplained rebirth... you know the - "Live damn you!!!!" moment...

Also works for a good "what's this soul worth to you?" type of interaction with patrons and such... Like go visit the great spirit of the green, and he might bring your friend back... for a price....

 

[Herremann the Wise]

It's only a small minority, committed to some form of strong mutual bond of friendship with a small group of still-living companions, who are likely to feel the compulsion to return to life and remain eligible for resurrection rituals.

You see to me this is illogical. Most people would not want to die and if they did and had the opportunity of being brought back, would more than likely say "hell yeah", particularly considering the minimal expense. The gods intervening is another matter...

So if the Raven Queen (that is, the DM) says no, it ain't happening. This came up in our game, once. A gnoll chieftan was assassinated, and one of the PCs said "Let's just raise him." It didn't work, because I said "As you begin the ritual, you realize that the gnoll's spirit has gone to the fate decreed to him by the Raven Queen."

You see this I can sort of buy... but only sorta. And if I start thinking about it too hard, it starts to fray at the edges. Why wouldn't the Raven Queen want one of her followers brought back to do her dirty work, particularly if the good guys are paying? And why then wouldn't she in turn stop the good guys from coming back and destroying her plans? {or are the evil guys dumb in this regard?} Or if she doesn't have control of that, wouldn't Pelor love anyone and everyone brought back? Anything to help the light out balance the substantial dark. Or perhaps you go back to the gods are fickle approach or that they don't have the power to bring back anyone except for the PCs, or that they are too distant from the goings on of the world (even though they provide substantial power to all their followers)? All these arguments just end up being hollow. Can anyone provide some meat on the bones of logic for me in this regard?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[RangerWickett]

On the other hand, I've been reading a bit of transhumanist fiction, and I'm about to run a sci-fi mini campaign where if you die, your buddies just need to recover your stack (a back up of your consciousness, surgically implanted in everyone's neck bones). Then they can order a clone of you, or just buy a body that used to belong to someone who was sentenced to death (deletion of the mind), and resleeve you in a new body.

I wouldn't do it in fantasy, but it's fascinating how it influences society in a sci-fi setting.

 

[Alzrius]

I haven't had a chance to start up a new campaign where I could muck around with the rules of bringing the dead back to life, so it's not something I've thought about too much.

That said, if I did make some changes it wouldn't be based around the fiat of a deity, nor making the spell too rare. Rather, I'd make the spell itself risky/unreliable, either because of how the magic works, or because it can have some serious consequences. For example, I'd probably reinstitute the old 2E standard of the character being resurrected needing to make a d% roll, with a failed roll meaning that he couldn't ever come back to life (quite possibly because the soul is destroyed in the process of trying to drag it back; hence, most dead people wouldn't want to risk it).

Resurrection magic, if it exists, should be unreliable and fraught with perils in and of itself, even assuming that you can find it and the gods allow it. IMHO.

 

[Scribble]

On the other hand, I've been reading a bit of transhumanist fiction, and I'm about to run a sci-fi mini campaign where if you die, your buddies just need to recover your stack (a back up of your consciousness, surgically implanted in everyone's neck bones). Then they can order a clone of you, or just buy a body that used to belong to someone who was sentenced to death (deletion of the mind), and resleeve you in a new body.

I wouldn't do it in fantasy, but it's fascinating how it influences society in a sci-fi setting.

I think in a sci-fi setting the thought of "true" death is then a driving motivation... IE if for some reason you CAN'T back yourself up...

It's also a good way to sort of play off of the social caste idea... Only the privileged few can afford to never die. The rest of us? We still have to suffer the pain of loosing a loved one.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

That sounds like a cool campaign, Ryan! I was just going to suggest John Varley's Eight Worlds stories (e.g. the collection Blue Champagne) as a place to look for how extremely ready access to resurrection (and controlled reincarnation) might transform a society.

Steven Brust's Jhereg books are great fantasy explorations of this idea and the life of an assassin in a world where resurrection is possible but expensive. Like the OP Brust does set up several ways for death to be permanent (special magic weapons, injury to the brain or spinal cord, too much time passing).

 

[Pour]

Yeah I just got rid of returning from the dead and that seems to have heightened things, though one of the original group members will be returning to life after an extensive quest undertaken by the rest of the PCs, and with consequences. On the whole, though, I prefer permadeath.

Another way to do it is how Shadowbane did, basically there was no escape from life, every death saw you return within a minute or so. It was tied to their Age of Strife, the beginning of Armageddon, and the way to the afterlife was closed up. Just imagine how that would effect a setting... The world would be bleak and rundown from countless wars without real losses, existence would become like a prison, and one of the driving quests that jumps out at me is the search and reinstating of Death. Could you imagine a group of heroes fighting all campaign long so they could die? Sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[kenmarable]

On the other hand, I've been reading a bit of transhumanist fiction, and I'm about to run a sci-fi mini campaign where if you die, your buddies just need to recover your stack (a back up of your consciousness, surgically implanted in everyone's neck bones). Then they can order a clone of you, or just buy a body that used to belong to someone who was sentenced to death (deletion of the mind), and resleeve you in a new body.

I wouldn't do it in fantasy, but it's fascinating how it influences society in a sci-fi setting.

If you really want to go transhumanist, why take the risk of having your consciousness located in one place that you need to back up? Think "cloud consciousness" where your mind is spread over several locations. One (or more?? that's a fun idea) happens to be flesh and blood. But if we have the tech to back-up and store consciousness, why not just extend the active mind beyond a single skull?

Another way to do it is how Shadowbane did, basically there was no escape from life, every death saw you return within a minute or so. It was tied to their Age of Strife, the beginning of Armageddon, and the way to the afterlife was closed up. Just imagine how that would effect a setting... The world would be bleak and rundown from countless wars without real losses, existence would become like a prison, and one of the driving quests that jumps out at me is the search and reinstating of Death. Could you imagine a group of heroes fighting all campaign long so they could die? Sounds like a lot of fun.

Why?! Why would you do this to me?!! Now I have yet another awesome campaign idea to steal but no time to play it! Thanks a lot.

 

[thewok]

You see to me this is illogical. Most people would not want to die and if they did and had the opportunity of being brought back, would more than likely say "hell yeah", particularly considering the minimal expense. The gods intervening is another matter...

Did you ever watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer? At the end of season 5, Buffy dies. In the first episode of season 6, Buffy's friends raise her from the dead. She seems distant, and sometimes cold. In episode 7 (the much-lauded "Once More, With Feeling"), we find out that Buffy had been in Heaven, and she resented being brought back.

It's quite easy to imagine the same thing happening in D&D. Mortals have an aversion to dying. But, like in the real world, the promise of an afterlife makes it so death is not so frightening an idea. No one wants to die, but everyone does. So, a person might gladly give his life so his friends might survive. But, once he sees the other side, will he truly want to come back? The answer is not always yes, especially when the person in question is a devout follower of a good god.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

It's quite easy to imagine the same thing happening in D&D. Mortals have an aversion to dying. But, like in the real world, the promise of an afterlife makes it so death is not so frightening an idea. No one wants to die, but everyone does. So, a person might gladly give his life so his friends might survive. But, once he sees the other side, will he truly want to come back? The answer is not always yes, especially when the person in question is a devout follower of a good god.

But not everyone in my campaigns are devout followers... of any god let alone the good ones. I can just as easily imagine most people not jiving with the whole sitting in a circle singing Kum ba yah afterlife-thing. "Get me home Alice and off to the local, there ain't no forty-nine virgins waiting for me up there let me tell ya".

I can see certain devout souls doing the Buffy thing but not the majority. The only logical way I see it is to restrict access to resurrection in some way. I don't see too many people doing the resurrection-abstinence dance given the option.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise