D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

[shoak1]

The problem that I'm seeing is that people are responding to statements such as "most gamers play it my way." ....Now, in response your post he says "his way" is maybe 30%, and that's a quite different statement than "most."

If you read the entire posts you will say I said most gamers in general play games that way, but that only 30% of D and D players play D and D that way.

 

[shoak1]

I would argue that freedom isn't just a feature, it's the primary feature. The "DM taint" you seek to marginalize at all costs is the very thing that attracts many gamers to the table to play D&D. They enjoy the unique taint a good DM brings to the chair. When they speak reverently of exploits past, it's often in fond remembrance of an explosion of taint!

Sure, there are bad DMs that need to relax their taint. Unbridled, irresponsible taint can easily make a game go to crap. But when a player makes a move toward the taint, whether that be from mindful exploration or pure chance, he is expressing his trust in the DM. An experienced DM need not withdraw his taint. He should use it confidently!

Do your players celebrate your taint's absence? Were they traumatized by some truly awful taint and now seek to avoid it at all costs? Do they say things like "Hey, Bob, remember that time I almost walked right into Steve's taint while we were playing Curse of Strahd? Man, that was a close call. He could have let me go knee deep into it, but instead he put me on the right path and kept me from stumbling into that filth!"

If your taint has soiled your group's enjoyment, there's no need to linger in shame. Bad taint happens to every DM at some point. But you learn from the mistake and clean up your game for the next session. Your taint will start to shine and grow with some measured preparation and continued practice. Eventually the players will not only stop trying to avoid your taint, they'll actively seek it out!

You seem to have missed my point entirely - its not about Good DM vs Bad DM - its about Big DM vs. DM Light. Two completely different things.

 

[shoak1]

Tony, no one is arguing against his right to play 5E in the style he prefers. @shoak1 is, along with @CapnZapp , arguing that there is an elephant in the room in 5E that needs fixing and should be fixed by WOTC. That is a far different discussion than simply talking about preferred play style and how to achieve it. I've offered several suggestions to fixing the rest issue that would, I believe, fit perfectly with shoak1's style, as have others. I love those discussions because it gives me a deeper understanding of the game and potential tools to make the game more enjoyable for my players.

To answer's shoak1's question. The reason DM Lites can't get a more rigid and balanced ruleset that the Big DMites can tweak is because there isn't enough demand for it to make it profitable for WOTC. WOTC has limited bandwidth and page-count to provide the official version of the game each year, and they find it more profitable to cater the system to the majority who want a looser ruleset with more DM involvement.

Consider this: How does WOC reach out to new players? With a nice fixed encounter-to encounter format ("Adventure League" and its precurssor "Encounters") that plays with DM Light just like my style. And it is shrewd marketing - most gamers are used to and comfortable with this type of play, so its a great way to get new blood into our family. As a result, sales are great, and it looks like 5e got it right.

But then comes the Bait-and-Switch...."Guess what guys ? That's not really the way the game is played - we're not really concerned with balance, uniformity, and all the stuff that we showed you in Adventure League. That's just stuff we do for noobs to ease them into how the game SHOULD be played".

We see those noobs post their concerns about balance and such, and how to structure things, because they are used to going to forums to get balance issues addressed and fixed. But what do they find when they go there? Big Story and Big DM telling them not to worry about Big Challenge, and that Big DM can just fix everything for them. How long do you think those guys are gonna stay interested in your game as they discover that?

As long as the Big DM and Big Story continue their strong opposition to Big Challenge and DM Light, you are quite correct that nothing will change - at least until one of two things happen: First, the whole thing ends up blowing up in an edition war because the majority cant be more flexible and make space for others, or secondly the majority relaxes their grip a bit and makes it clear they are ok with some compromise in order to attract AND KEEP a wider audience.

So returning to Tony's words:

The biggest misconception in the broader RPG community is not just that you can have one without the other, but that you somehow can't combine them, when that's the very essence of what an RPG is: both RPing & Gaming.

We CAN indeed have both - it would be rather easy to do imo - and I think our dialog should turn to that

 

[Ristamar]

You seem to have missed my point entirely - its not about Good DM vs Bad DM - its about Big DM vs. DM Light. Two completely different things.

I didn't miss your point; I was making a (childish) joke.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Increment your counter Imaro!

First, the whole thing ends up blowing up in an edition war because the majority cant be more flexible, or secondly the majority relaxes their grip a bit and makes it clear they are ok with some compromise.

Hopefully that is vanishingly unlikely. It's been years since 5e dropped - in contrast, the edition war started before 4e hit the shelves.

And it's not the majority that's inflexible, the majority just play (&, hopefully, enjoy) the game and never post in echo chambers like this. They follow Mike Mearls twitter or watch play podcasts or don't bother with the on-line community, at all.

Consider this: How does WOC reach out to new players?

Is that a trick question?
WotC has reached out to both new and /returning/ players, since D&D was a huge fad in the 80s, and there were a lot of folks who hadn't played it since then. It reached out to returning players with a new version of D&D packaged in the familiar 3-volume core rule books (I'm half-surprised the covers weren't more on the nose), and, this time, had rules between the covers that were somewhat familiar in structure, function, & presentation, and most of all, evoked a similar, at least recognizable style & feel.

That also happened to sacrifice anything that might have made it more appealing to the kind of much broader audience propelling video games, MMOs, and even boardgames to such vastly greater heights than TTRPGs.

In addition to reaching out continuing, returning, and even new fans (where applicable), WotC has succeeded in stabilizing D&D's brand image, which is vital to eventually getting some real revenue out of it in some other medium. They'll have another hurdle, then, making whatever it is - movie or MMO or whatever - appealing to the mainstream without so upsetting the original fans that they go off on it again and scare them off. Same challenge comic book movies eventually overcame (well, and CGI helped).

With a nice fixed encounter-to encounter format ("Adventure League" and its precurssor "Encounters") that plays with DM Light just like my style. And it works well - most gamers are used to and comfortable with this type of play, so its a great way to get new blood into our family. As a result, sales are great, and it looks like 5e got it right.

I've run AL, and it started out a bit like Encounters, but it's really increasingly free-form these days. You can still count on the standard ruleset, of course, feats'll be OK and so forth.
On top of that, how an AL session plays out is very much on the DM, even that first 'season,' different DMs delivered very different experiences with HotDQ. Some were able to salvage it, some saw TPKs, some gave up...
...some were like "what's the problem? this is AWESOME!"

But then comes the Bait-and-Switch...."Guess what guys ? That's not really the way the game is played - we're not really concerned with balance, uniformity, and all the stuff that we showed you in Adventure League". We see those guys post their concerns about balance and such, and how to structure things, only to find Big Story and Big DM tell them not to worry about Big Challenge, and that Big DM can just fix everything for them. How long do you think those guys are gonna stay interested in your game as they discover that?

D&D doesn't exactly have a stellar track record when it comes to retaining new players. It's keeping the existing fanbase happy & united that's vital, to avoid a repeat of the negativity of the edition war. And it's bringing back the lapsed fans that's the big growth opportunity, by repeating the fad of the 80s. Of course, there'll be those who try D&D and don't care for it, but they're always have been - and they might've clashed with the existing fanbase, anyway, we don't need that.

We all just need to get along, this time.

 

[OB1]

We see those noobs post their concerns about balance and such, and how to structure things, because they are used to going to forums to get balance issues addressed and fixed. But what do they find when they go there? Big Story and Big DM telling them not to worry about Big Challenge, and that Big DM can just fix everything for them. How long do you think those guys are gonna stay interested in your game as they discover that?

Why do you believe Big Challenge is incompatible with Big Story and Big DM in the 5e ruleset? I have no problem balancing all three. My players prefer their combat pillar to be more on the game side so that's what I give them.

I create a tactical style of gameplay for them by creating situations where there are far more fights than they could possibly handle and get to their objective, then let them figure out ways around some of those fights, or retreat when they can't go on any further and fail that objective. I pre-plan these encounters, and don't change them in session. If they figure out a way to get around all of them, cool, I'll try harder next time. If I made it too tough and they have to turn around with their tail between their legs, that's fine too, they'll try harder next time. And my guiding principal when ruling on whatever crazy plan they come up with is simple, suspend their disbelief and make sure they are having fun. My first concern when I sit down to DM is that my players have a great time for the next 4-6 hours, with the second being that they tell the story of that day's adventure for years to come.

As for your concerns about 5E balance, post them and I will do my best to provide solutions to those to use in your game that your group can decide on together and implement. No need for the DM to arbitrarily decide on the fly. No need to wait for WoTC to provide you with the solution.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

If you read the entire posts you will say I said most gamers in general play games that way, but that only 30% of D and D players play D and D that way.

Yeah, but on a D&D forum people read "gamers" as D&D players. And until that other post, you had not clarified. Either way, I misunderstood, so that's my problem. If my (mis)interpretation has caused hurt feelings, I apologize. Not my intent. It's been a long week...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Why do you believe Big Challenge is incompatible with Big Story and Big DM in the 5e ruleset?

I'd hoped I'd convinced him it wasn't.

 

[OB1]

That also happened to sacrifice anything that might have made it more appealing to the kind of much broader audience propelling video games, MMOs, and even boardgames to such vastly greater heights than TTRPGs.

This is true in the same way that IPA beers sacrifice the drinkability of an American Light Lager to appeal to a specific market. Stone Arrogant Bastard will never reach the sales heights of Bud Light, but it is immensely popular with it's target audience and makes the owners of Stone Brewing a ton of money. And while their total potential audience is much smaller by appealing to only IPA drinkers, they don't have the competition that they would face if they tried to start making American Light Lager, so they are more profitable by catering to their niche.

 

[billd91]

This is true in the same way that IPA beers sacrifice the drinkability of an American Light Lager to appeal to a specific market. Stone Arrogant Bastard will never reach the sales heights of Bud Light, but it is immensely popular with it's target audience and makes the owners of Stone Brewing a ton of money. And while their total potential audience is much smaller by appealing to only IPA drinkers, they don't have the competition that they would face if they tried to start making American Light Lager, so they are more profitable by catering to their niche.

More to the point, I'm not sure WotC actually sacrificed anything that would have led any tabletop RPG, D&D included, to the same popularity as MMOs and computer games. I simply don't think it's in RPGs to reach those heights as a hobby, not when the instant gratification and immersion (and even playability when you're the only one home) of computer games/MMOs is so high.