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D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Depends how many Orcs there are (they do breed like rabbits, after all; and "dangerous Orc territory" would lead me to believe there's hundreds if not thousands living there), and whether any number of them have much more going for them than the average run-of-the-mill Orc.

Again, depends what the random encounters consist of. Three wandering Orcs? Irrelevant to any party. Three wandering Stone Giants? Yeah, that'll make some low-level types sit up and take notice...

Lanefan
Sigh.

Really? I must explicitly explain I'm not talking about Orc dangerousness at all? Oh well, you might be a newcomer to the thread, so here goes again, for the umpteenth time...

I'm talking about how trivial it is to negate wandering monsters as a rest deterrent.

I'm saying that any orc or umber hulk or nonspellcast-demon simply cannot touch a resting party with access to spells.

This thread is about how the game expects a certain encounter pattern and then not only completely fails to ensure that happens, but actively works to make it as hard as possible for the DM to make it happen.

And the single out is always the same: apply a time pressure. Except that's incredibly overdone and incredibly sloppily done most of the time.

The world is ending! Big bad Hubba Bubba will crash the moon into the world because Evil! Please hurry!

Except this "hurry" is incredibly generic and abstract and the intention is (in 99 out of 100 published* adventures) for the heroes to show up in the nick of time...

...regardless of how many rests they take getting there!!

That's the elephant in the room nobody's willing to talk about.

*) ah yes, so you dont reply "not in my adventures": Consider this a thread about playing 100% official using WotC published adventures only, if it helps you not dismiss the subject with an useless "I'm the DM and I make it work". Thx

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Well, it depends on the level of the characters and the number of Orcs.

At 1st level, it would be very dangerous.

At 5th level, having a 50% chance of a 10 Orc patrol rolling up on the party every hour would be dangerous, and would make trying to take a long rest in the area potentially fatal as the 12 encounters a day would eventually deplete the party's resources.

At 10th level, having an Adult Green Dragon strike and retreat constantly while moving through it's territory would be dangerous. Perhaps the Ranger in the party recognizes that they haven entered such territory and they will need 4-5 hours to move past it's hunting grounds.

My point, ultimately is that for Random encounters to be relevant, there must be enough of a risk of them happening to get to your daily XP allotment, and that resting can lead to it going over that allotment. Of course a single monster with a CR 150% or higher above the party level can also act as the deterrent.

In a hex crawl, these types of dangerous territory sections of the map can first be impossible, then difficult but possible and finally trivial to the point that you stop using them when players are moving through that particular section of the world (baring some other change).

But the APs don't do this out of the box, I had to ramp up OOTA to accomplish this, and, even though I don't need the APs to spell it out for me, don't think it's a bad idea to include such guidelines in them to help inspire DMs.
Sigh #2

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Nope. Not at all.

But you also don't get to pretend that solutions don't exist.

There's a difference between, " I'm having this problem." And "I'm having this problem and I will reject any and all solutions that are not 100% mechanical in nature and 100% WotC official".

Correct.

Now back to solutions that are 100% mechanical in nature and 100% WotC official [emoji4]

In other words, let's discuss the situation where you aren't available to come home to me and solve the issues for me, Hussar [emoji2]

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Correct.

Now back to solutions that are 100% mechanical in nature and 100% WotC official [emoji4]

In other words, let's discuss the situation where you aren't available to come home to me and solve the issues for me, Hussar [emoji2]

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

What's the point of the thread then if it isn't looking for solutions? You're just looking for people to pay you on the back and congratulate your perspicaciousness?

No time pressure is not the only solution. The easiest solution is to take those big honking single day encounters and break them up a bit.

But since you insist on giving your players every possible advantage I'm left thinking that you don't really want a solution at all.
 

Oh well, you might be a newcomer to the thread
Nope...sorry to say I've been in for the duration. :)

I'm talking about how trivial it is to negate wandering monsters as a rest deterrent.

I'm saying that any orc or umber hulk or nonspellcast-demon simply cannot touch a resting party with access to spells.
If you're referring to Rope Trick, its duration is one hour. Fine for a short rest, but what caster anywhere has 8 2nd-level slots to bang off for a long rest (assuming they even have Rope Trick as a castable spell), and how good of a rest can it really be if every hour everyone has to stow their gear and then climb down (and back up) a rope?

If you're referring to Leo's Tiny Hut, the problem there is with the spell itself: over the years it's been made far too powerful. Use the 1e version instead - it gave the climate control and wind reduction, caster's choice of interior lighting or not, and was transparent from the inside but not from the outside. That's it. Anything - and I mean anything - could pass through it both ways including spells, weapons, missiles, people, even rain; and if the caster passed through it (i.e. exited; she had to be inside it when she cast it) the spell ended immediately. And it held fewer people - 6 plus the caster, as opposed to 9 plus the caster in 5e.

So, unless one took pains to cast it in a hidden or secluded space a 1e Leo's Hut was simply a signal to any passing...well, anything...that adventurer might be on the menu tonight.

Lanefan
 

But, again, the discrepancy only exists FOR YOU. And for anyone who is insisting on ignoring the actual design advice provided in the DMG.

Yup, congratulations, if you run single encounter days, 5e D&D will not provide very good challenges. Yuppers, that's right.

Now, since you know that, why would you continue to run single encounter days? You know what the problem is (single encounter days allow the party to punch too far above their weight class) and you know, because you've been told repeatedly, what the solution is - use 3-18 encounters per adventuring day.

Now, why this thread has lasted 80 some pages is beyond me. It's frankly baffling. We know the problem. We have a perfectly viable solution (RTFM and follow the advice). There's no elephant. An elephant in the room would be a problem that no one is recognizing. We recognize the problem. The game designers recognize the problem. Concussed gerbils on crack recognize the problem. Only thing is, everyone else figured out the easy solution. DON'T USE SINGLE ENCOUNTER DAYS.

uhhhh CapnZapp? I uhhh...dont think we can count Hussar among the ranks of those with "awareness of a huge discrepancy between what the design presupposes and what the game actually provides"....But hey. I've been absent for a while, so maybe I will take having to respond to this post off your hands.

Hussar.....grab a module.....any one...it doesn't matter which......now thumb through it till you find an isolated encounter, or really, almost ANY encounter. Now tell me how the module provides for it not to be a single encounter day.

What's that? Oh......Big DM (errrr....Empowered DM) can just wave his magic wand and make up some crap about how they cant rest there, on the way there, or on the way back?
Or who needs Big Challenge anyway when Big Story is so cool?
Or News Alert - you DM Light and Big Challenge peeps LOST the edition wars (LOSERS!) so who cares about you and your stinkin' elephant anyway lol????? :)

Sure - or how about instead the designers giving a nod and writing a few paragraphs in the module (that is supposed to be a good guide as to how the game is played actually lol) to show proper implementation of avoiding such problems with SUCH A CORE BALANCING RULE!!!!

And Hussar, I didn't review the last 2 pages of the thread but I was pretty involved in much of the thread and can tell you that there is a lot more to the Elephant than 1-encounter days. Like how, as usual in 5e, the modules seem to ignore all aspects of resource management almost universally. But there again, I forgot - nothing matters and there cannot be a problem with any game system, balance, or other issue as long as Big Empowered DM (the best way marketing tool ever for avoiding responsibility in game design) is IN THE HOUSE !!!!!!!!
 

Sigh.

Really? I must explicitly explain I'm not talking about Orc dangerousness at all? Oh well, you might be a newcomer to the thread, so here goes again, for the umpteenth time...

I'm talking about how trivial it is to negate wandering monsters as a rest deterrent.

I'm saying that any orc or umber hulk or nonspellcast-demon simply cannot touch a resting party with access to spells.

This thread is about how the game expects a certain encounter pattern and then not only completely fails to ensure that happens, but actively works to make it as hard as possible for the DM to make it happen.

And the single out is always the same: apply a time pressure. Except that's incredibly overdone and incredibly sloppily done most of the time.

The world is ending! Big bad Hubba Bubba will crash the moon into the world because Evil! Please hurry!

Except this "hurry" is incredibly generic and abstract and the intention is (in 99 out of 100 published* adventures) for the heroes to show up in the nick of time...

...regardless of how many rests they take getting there!!

That's the elephant in the room nobody's willing to talk about.

*) ah yes, so you dont reply "not in my adventures": Consider this a thread about playing 100% official using WotC published adventures only, if it helps you not dismiss the subject with an useless "I'm the DM and I make it work". Thx

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

LOL (slow clap)
 

What's the point of the thread then if it isn't looking for solutions? You're just looking for people to pay you on the back and congratulate your perspicaciousness?

No time pressure is not the only solution. The easiest solution is to take those big honking single day encounters and break them up a bit.

But since you insist on giving your players every possible advantage I'm left thinking that you don't really want a solution at all.

Yeah Capn Zapp!!! Just rally behind Big Empowered DM The Street Sweeper with us and let your players have Every Possible Advantage (as defined by me of course - (blush))! That way it isn't a problem any more! I mean geeeeezzzzzz......Your fixation with written rules and design balance is just - OMG!!!!.....Sooooooooo ICK!""
 

Correct.

Now back to solutions that are 100% mechanical in nature and 100% WotC official [emoji4]

In other words, let's discuss the situation where you aren't available to come home to me and solve the issues for me, Hussar [emoji2]
You're so modest in your demands, Capn ;)

I believe the best 100% mechanical 100% WotC solution presently available is to use the Gritty Realism option from the DMG and apply *all* the words in the PHB RAW on Long Rests. The latter gives a number of outs to the DM

Sentence Two - Interruptions I
The construction of the second sentence of Long Rest does not reasonably imply that an hour of combat is needed to interrupt a Long Rest, ergo any combat interrupts a Long Rest. From an "official" point of view we might feel wedded to Crawford's ruling on that and say that only one entire hour of combat breaks a long-rest. This is patently risible and I frankly ignore Crawford on this point. To briefly expand on why - our average combat is 5 rounds (30 seconds). That is supported both by empirical evidence and rules found in the DMG. Thus, according to Crawford our adventurers need to join 120 combats to interrupt a Long Rest. That is nearly three times the assumed number of encounters to level from 1 to 20! What the second sentence does reasonably imply is that 1 hour of walking is equivalent to 1 combat or 1 spell cast, in terms of interrupting a long rest.

Sentence Two - Interruptions II
Regardless of how we feel about the above, we can use "similar adventuring activity to come up with other interruptions. For example, we might say taking damage interrupts a rest, or dying, or healing, or... you get the picture. So long as its as strenuous as a relaxed hour's walk, it'll interrupt the rest. Anything that bestows a level of exhaustion could interrupt a rest, by that measure. As DMs those three words let us do what we want.

Sentence One - Requirements
No matter how we feel about both of the above arguments, in order to count as long resting our PCs must meet the requirements stated the first sentence of Long Rest. So long as we're being obedient to official sources, we're not entitled to read some words and ignore others. Thus, during the rest our PCs must sleep, or read, talk, eat or stand watch for up to 2 hours. If we're being silly about the meaning of the second sentence, we're certainly justified in being silly about the meaning of this sentence and can say that "during" means they must keep doing those things for the whole rest. I would obviously suggest we avoid being silly about either sentence, and instead understand that our PCs must do only those sorts of things described in sentence one, but needn't do them continuously, while avoiding doing the other more strenuous sorts of things described in sentence two - including any casting and any combat. If you want to adhere to "official" then official sources are silent thus far on sentence one, and as DMs we can adopt it in frank contradiction to sentence two and proceed as we like.

DMG - Gritty Realism
With Gritty Realism in place, space is created to stretch player resources. The Angry GM's approach is what I've described as a squashy balloon. PCs push down on encounters per day, so threat level swells up elsewhere. A decent ​official alternative is simply make long rests long enough that players can't resort to them whenever they like, and things like L's Tiny Hut can't be so easily abused.
 
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