D&D (2024) Return to the 3 saves for 1D&D?

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think the math really supports this and I don't think Con is behind dex, I think it is also behind Wisdom and if it wasn't for being a common save it would be dead last IMO.

hit points are easy to come by in 5E and healing is plentiful. The biggest weakness of Constitution is that is not used for any skills.

Most of my characters who do point buy or standard array play with a 10 or 12 Constitution. The only point buy character I;ve played that started with higher than a 12 is a Rune Knight and only because he needed it for DC against his rune knight powers. I would use a higher constitution on a Barbarian too, but I have never played one myself. Everything else I can always find a better stat to put points towards. If you are rolling abilities, like I do for a lot of my games, then it is a different story.

It is not about what you think the math supports and which characters you played. A +1 bonus is just 5%, a 1 in 20 chance that it matters. So having 1 point more dex at level 5 means you prevent about 10 to 14 damage (firebolt or fire ball) in 1 of 20 cases. 5 more hp will help you more often... As a wizard, 5 more hp going up from 10 are about 23% more hp. And more importantly raises your hp so high that you might survive an unsaved fireball about 40% of the times instead of only about 10% of the times.
If you go up from 12 to 14, it is still an 18% increase in hp, and you will survive a fireball with an unsuccessful save with about 75% chance.

Yes, constitution is not used for any skill by default (but mightcome into play if you are doing athletics for a longer duration), but I take my chances with a bit higher HP and better concentration saves most of the time. If you value +1 dex for AC and initiative higher, that is ok. But con and HP are very valuable.

 

[ECMO3]

It is not about what you think the math supports and which characters you played. A +1 bonus is just 5%, a 1 in 20 chance that it matters. So having 1 point more dex at level 5 means you prevent about 10 to 14 damage (firebolt or fire ball) in 1 of 20 cases. 5 more hp will help you more often...

You are preventing 10-14 damage a lot more than 1 in 20 hits. It is a 1 point boost in AC which will cut the amount of damage you take by a lot more than 5%.

A 5th level wizard with mage armor a 16 dexterity and shield spell is hit 6 times in 20 against an enemy with a +6 attack bonus, the same wizard with a 15 dexterity is hit 7 times in 20, so that one point dexterity eliminates 17% of hits. In terms of the number of times you can be attacked until you "run out of hit points" it is 17% more.

Further this is a very, very simple case. Put that same Wizard under Protection from good and Evil or blur which give the adversary disadvantage and now that 1 point in dexterity reduces the number of times he is hit by 27%.

Make it a bladesinger in bladesong instead of just a basic wizard and now the point in dex drives the number needed to hit from 18 to 19 and reduces the damage taken from those firebolts by 33%. Add blur on top of bladesong and that 1 point of dexterity is cutting the amount of damage she takes by over 50%.

That is compared to that static 5 point boost in hit points which amounts to a maximum of 25% more hit points at 5th level.

As a wizard, 5 more hp going up from 10 are about 23% more hp. And more importantly raises your hp so high that you might survive an unsaved fireball about 40% of the times instead of only about 10% of the times.

Absorb elements and counterspell is how a wizard usually survives a fireball.

Yes, constitution is not used for any skill by default (but mightcome into play if you are doing athletics for a longer duration), but I take my chances with a bit higher HP and better concentration saves most of the time. If you value +1 dex for AC and initiative higher, that is ok. But con and HP are very valuable.

There are a ton of ways to get hit points. You can buy them in the basic equipment section of the players handbook at ~7gp per hit point (potions of healing) and numerous spells can give you temp hit points.

Moreover on concentration saves it is highly dependant on your AC, because a point in dexterity will be an "auto save" on 5% of attacks directed against you and will result in approximately 15% fewer total saves you need to make.

A character with a +2 con fails 7 in 20 DC 10 concentration saves. Someone with a +1 con fails 8 in 20, but if he has a higher dexterity he gets hit less..

So your 18 AC character with a +2 con takes 20 attacks from a bad guy with a +6 attack bonus. He gets hit 9 times on average, with your 14 con you are going to fail con saves 3.15 times on average from being attacked 20 times with a _6 (assuming DC10). A character with 19 AC and a +1 con save (better dex wors con) gets hit 8 times and will fail the exact same number of concentration saves (3.15 times) on average.

If you move the AC in the example, with ACs lower than 18/19 the guy with the higher dexterity will fail concentration more and with ACs higher than 18/19 the guy with the higher constitution will fail concentration more.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Snip

Usong absorb elements, your 5 hp are suddenly 10...

So after all those calculations, seems more or less balanced, doesn't it?

On a side note: you can't prevent the concentration save against save half spells. So your calculation is flawed.

 

[Olrox17]

And I think you are wrong. Yes players have low saves, but they also have overwhelming powers and spells to compensate for those low saves.

As I said, players are weakest and die most often at low level when DCs are makeable even with low unproficienct saves.

I concentrated on psychic scream because that is the example YOU used and I provided numerous examples of very effective ways to counter it, including some widely available at 5th level.

Psychic Scream is one example, but whatever example you throw out there will be LOTs of counters to it and those counters will be common in most parities at that level.

We played Rise of the Drow recently and our party was hit us with the highest damage spell I have seen in a game. A Drow Matron/demon boss hit us with a spell published in the adventure that did 20d20 damage (it was 10d20 of necrotic and 10d20 of acid I think) on a dexsave. One PC (Paladin Warlock) made his save I think and still went down, 1 PC (Range-Fighter) made his save and had like 10 hit points after he used absorb elements for the acid part of the damage. My character saved and took no damage because she had evasion (Arcane Trickster 9/Arcane Archer 6/Shadow Sorcerer 1), she would have died outright without evasion. Our cleric was not in the AOE. Next Round the boss put hold person on me (which I failed) and the Ranger (who had proficiency from a subclass and passed), and our Cleric (who failed despite proficiency), but by that time the Paladin was back in the fight having benefited from mass healing word by the cleric who also turned most of the undead henchmen in the same turn and I had used a wand of conjure animals to surround the boss, her two drow gaurds and the few undead that did not fail with a bunch of giant bats. I followed up the conjure animals with a bonus action quick toss sneak attack against one of the guards using a dart and then readied an action (action surge) and hit the other guard off my turn (on one of the bat's turns who went next and used help), with a shot from my long bow which included sharpshooter+grasping arrow+sneak attack+menacing attack using an arrow+2. In one turn I had brought multiple allies (and actions) on to the battefield, significantly damaged one guard and severely damaged the other while also reducing his movement, frightening him and causing him further damage when he tried to move. After the boss's turn I was held for several rounds, eventually I made the save, or maybe she died first I can't remember, but the point is we survived that battle fairly easily despite the enemy having high power spells and starting far away and being able to do massive damage and having a 19DC. Once the Paladin got in close and could use counterspell, it was over for her.

Our party was not abnormal, it was built on point buy using published rules and we did not have any uber-powerful magic items and we survived relatively easily. That is not a specific example, it is an actual example from play at 16th level.

I still think you’re losing the bigger picture by over focusing on specific examples and anecdotes - but I’ll ask a question. From your Rise of the Drow playtest report, I gathered that you were a player, not the DM. Have you ever DMed high level 5e? Do you Dm at all?

 

[Branduil]

Since AC does not scale with prof bonus, so most saves should not.

Spells get more reliable as levels goes on, unless you target that specific save.


there are few solutions to failing too much on spells;

1. Make resilient give two proficiencies and make it so you can take that feat twice. One save must be from dex, con or wis and other from str, int or cha.

2. make hard crowd control effects on failed saves little bit weaker, so players are not out of the game for several rounds.

3. don't dump stats

4. my suggestion on ability usage:

Using abilities for only ability checks.

Yes, an idea to remove most effects from abilities so the only affect ability checks/skills. Have abilities only have mostly RP value. all combat is based on your level. In all other aspects of the game; attacks, saves, damage and DC's, ability mod would be replaced by your proficiency bonus...

www.enworld.org

Yes, technically (the best kind of correct) AC does not scale with level. But we all know most players will increase their AC over time regardless, because of being able to afford better armor, magical armor, higher Dex, etc. And really, with physical attacks, you can consider it to actually be two lines of defense; AC is merely the first, hit points are the second, and they massively increase as you level up. Losing hit points essentially doesn't matter until you hit zero, so getting hit with an attack rarely takes someone out of the fight. I think effects which debilitate or remove the actions of a player should be harder to achieve than hitting AC, not easier.

 

[ECMO3]

I still think you’re losing the bigger picture by over focusing on specific examples and anecdotes - but I’ll ask a question. From your Rise of the Drow playtest report, I gathered that you were a player, not the DM. Have you ever DMed high level 5e? Do you Dm at all?

Yes. I DM a lot, I used to primarily DM, but I like playing better so recently I have DMed less then I have played. I am currently DMing 2 campaigns which are at level 6 and level 12.

As far as high level campaigns, I DMed Dungeon of the Mad Mage until level 18 (when we lost interest). I was a player in ROD as you guessed.

I am not saying high level characters are not faced with near-impossible or even impossible saves, they are. But they also have world-altering abilities and spells that WAY more than compensate for this and that is before you consider legendary magic items and other such things they are likely to have at high level.

 

[jasper]

No, That would be backwards to 3.5.