Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

Using my above example, let's say that solitary sorcerer does successfully cast sleep on those two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins and then kills them. Let's also say that sorcerer already had 600 XP. He just jumped from level 1 to level 3 without barely lifting a finger.

That's ridiculous.

And if you think that "it's okay" to reduce the challenges faced by lower-level characters, then you are missing the whole point of this game! The lowest levels are not meant to be run through at break neck pace. They are meant to be savored, while facing proportionate challenges at every single level (not just epic levels).

The equation may be "accurate" Upper_Krust, but it has to work at all times to be universally feasible. Don't be blinded by equations that feel "accurate" right now. If you have to create a new equation that "also" works ... then so be it.

I can hear it in your written voices. Don't start rationalizing lower levels away now.

Hmmm . . . Well a Level 1 fighter could win initiative over a Pit Fiend, roll 20 three times in a row for an instant death hit, and gain 46,080,000 XP as well, bumping him up to Level uh something really high . . . Fact is, it simply isn't very likely! Can't account for ALL factors!

Besides, if a Level 1 sorcerer can beat two Level 2 Fighter hobgoblins by himself in a fight, he DESERVES to be Level 3, cause that would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to pull off.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Hmmm ... Well a Level 1 fighter could win initiative over a Pit Fiend, roll 20 three times in a row for an instant death hit, and gain 46,080,000 XP as well, bumping him up to Level uh something really high . . . Fact is, it simply isn't very likely! Can't account for ALL factors!

Hmmm ... rolling three 20's in a row or having two 2nd level hobgoblin fighters fail their Will save on an average Hit Dice roll for the spell sleep.

What can take we commonly take into account and what breaks the bell curve of normalcy.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

Besides, if a Level 1 sorcerer can beat two Level 2 Fighter hobgoblins by himself in a fight, he DESERVES to be Level 3, cause that would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to pull off. [/B]

:

There is nothing even remotely challenging/difficult/heroic (take your pick) about two 2nd level hobgoblins failing their Will saves.

Perspective is desperately needed here Anubis. Please grab some.

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm ... rolling three 20's in a row or having two 2nd level hobgoblin fighters fail their Will save on an average Hit Dice roll for the spell sleep.

What can take we commonly take into account and what breaks the bell curve of normalcy.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

Ya' think? Shall we take a look at odds? It truly is less likely, BUT I'll bet the chances are closer than you think. Try to keep up with me if you can. I will use NPC info from the DMG for my example. Two hobgoblin Level 2 Fighters and a single human Level 1 Sorcerer. Remember that hobgoblins get +2 Dex, +2 Con, and +4 Move Silently to the stats in the DMG and the human gets an extra skill and an extra feat. Also keep in mind that for the purposes of this experiment, we'll be using my optional Toughness feat, something that works to the human's advantage as I give hp +5 instead of hp +3. The sorcerer will have, as per the book, Toughness and Combat Casting.

First off, Initiative. Sorcerer +2, Hobgoblins +6. First thing that has to happen is the Sorcerer must win initiative. If the sorcerer does not win initiative, the odds are he or she will be dead before getting to do anything, or at least that's what is most likely. Anyway, the chances of the Sorcerer winning initiative are, since he must roll 5 higher than the hobgoblins, roughly 56%.

Now the Sorcerer casts Sleep. First off, the Sorcerer must be able to effect enough Hit Dice to hit both of them, so he needs a 4 on 2d4. The odds are at 71% here, so not bad. Odds stand at 39%. Next come the saving throws. The hobgoblins' Will saves are +1 against DC 13. The hobgoblins must roll 12 or higher, and generally speaking, they must both fail their saves else one will certainly wake up the other. The odds of that happening are 20%. So far the Sorcerer's odds are at 7%.

It's not over yet! Next up come the kill attempts. Assuming the Sorcerer moved in after casting Sleep, it is time for a Coup de Grace attempt. Contrary to popular belief, this does not necessarily result in a kill. The hobgoblins have 21 hp each. The Sorcerer has a shortspear, and the damage is 1d8-1/x3 crit. The average damage of the attack will be 10, certainly not enough to kill by itself. That does produce the need a DC 20 Fortitude saving throw, though, but the hobgoblins Fortitude saves are +6. The chances of the Coup de Grace making the kill are, since the hobgoblin must roll 13 or less, 65%. Then you have the same chances, 65%, killing the other hobgoblin in the subsequent round. The chances of killing both are 42%, and the overall odds are now sitting at 2%.

Okay, there you have it, a 2% chance of the Sorcerer winning the fight. Challenging enough for you?

Now compare that to the odds of rolling three 20s in a row. 0.01%.

As I said, the odds aren't too far apart. 2% to 0.01%. I think you would agree that either happening is incredibly unlikely.

I know what you're thinking. My own numbers show the former as 200 times more likely. I understand that. However, we're also talking about a difference between 10,800 XP and 46,080,000 XP, or 4267 times more! So for all you gamblers out there, tell me how you work this. 200 times worse odds for 4267 times the payoff. That's a 21 to 1 factor. A betting man would put money on the 0.01%.

:

There is nothing even remotely challenging/difficult/heroic (take your pick) about two 2nd level hobgoblins failing their Will saves.

Perspective is desperately needed here Anubis. Please grab some.

You can find perspective in my previous paragraph, man. An EL +10 encounter with a 0.02% chance of winning being worth 10,800 XP ain't too bad, and I believe it to be accurate.

My God I can't believe it, I'm actually defending UK's system now! Hell HAS frozen over! Wow, looks like you did it for the most part, UK, except for the damn ghouls and ghasts.

 

[S'mon]

It would take a lot of house rules and luck for a 1st level PC to be in the situation where rolling 3 20s could kill a pit fiend, which itself is a 1 in 8000 chance. First he has to get close enough without being noticed, then win initiative, then be able to bypass DR by a magic weapon or some HR'd substance (silver IMC), then an instant-kill rule has to be in effect.

IMC pit fiends can be hurt by silver, but no instant-kill rule, so chance is 0%.

 

[S'mon]

I rate ghouls CR 2 & ghasts CR 3, although ghasts could arguably be CR 4. Ghouls are definitely not CR 1 anyway, a single ghoul can often TPK a party of 4 1st level PCs.

Re hobgoblin fighters - a 2nd level hobgoblin elite fighter with gear and stats as per the DMG tables is indeed CR 2, and worth 600 XP to a low-level party, so 2 of them are worth 1200 XP. From GMing at that level I can say that the CR is accurate, although the XP award may be too high. If anything it's a tougher foe than a CR 2 bugbear.

However, if you take away the hobgoblin fighter-2's 2500gp worth of gear, Elite stats, his max hp on the first die, and equip him as the CR 1/2 MM hobgoblin warrior-1, I'd say his CR is 1, same as a hobgoblin warrior-2, although he'll on average have 2 more hp.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Experience Points

Hi all!

Seemingly we have encountered one of those speed bumps I predicted would occur when we removed Ability Scores from the equation...I hate to say I told you so.

However, I think a solution should present itself once we mull over the facts. I am sure the proof is in the pudding.

Two factors are responsible for generating more EXP than usual from 1st to 4th-level.

Firstly that EL is now responsible for EXP.
Secondly that certain CRs are now higher.

Under the current rules a character must face:
13.3 encounters of EL +/-0 to ascend each level.
8.8 encounters of EL +1
6.6 encounters of EL +2
4.4 encounters of EL +3
3.3 encounters of EL +4 (50/50 encounters)
2.2 encounters of EL +5
1.6 encounters of EL +6
1.1 encounters of EL +7
0.8 encounters of EL +8

My rules use the same premise. However, they correctly assign a higher EL to the relationship between CR/Levels 1 - 4.

Meaning that if a 1st-level party were only to encounter tough challenges it would ascend in level quicker. But it should be noted that more difficult challenges at low levels (especially 1st-level) can more often than not lead to players rolling up new characters, unless the DM is comfortable fudging a few rolls behind a DMs screen.

So if you are going to play the game 100% fair, use the system as is. If you are happy fudging a few rolls to keep players alive then I would suggest employing a situational modifier of -1 EL.

According to the DMG, the two Hobgoblins would be worth 1200 EXP. (instead of the 2400 my system purports). However, I am happy with my results. Obviously if the party surprise the Hobgoblins and 'get the jump on them' and both Hobgoblins fall to a single sleep spell then I would consider that a situational modifier resulting in a -1 EL penalty.

So essentially I would handle this with situational modifiers, since if we treat NPCs as fairly as PCs then my system is flawless. However, I should perhaps expand on situational modifiers section in the pdf since it currently is little more than a footnote.

 

[S'mon]

From play, I'd rate the difference between Elite and Average ability scores (+10 points in point buy, from 15 to 25) as +1 CR. I don't think +20 points would be +2 CR though, it's the total stat plusses that matter, especially the plusses to the relevant combat stats, and there are diminishing returns. +10 point-buy gives around +5 to relevant stats, +20 gives around +7.5, depending on how they're assigned. I suggest (using traditional DMG CR-rating method):

Points CR mod
10 +1
30 +2
60 +3
100 +4

This handily parrallels the XP table. Points are point-buy points, ie more than 1 per stat over 14.

 

[xanatos]

This is the last group of things that sounded strange after reading the pdf two or three times. (for UK)

ECL: perhaps you should add "usable at will"... A Cure Light Wounds Usable At Will is quite powerful (it's like a Fast Healing Not Usable in Combat). Players always try to maximize "usable at will" abilities, while monsters can use them only a few times before dying.

Vorpal Strike and Devastating Critical
Isn't the first too much better than the second? (No save against Fort Save) (the Fort Save is based on Con and HD... Bigger creatures have both of them... Epic Creatures are quite often Big... So...)

Revised Spells
If you revise Harm and Heal then you should add higher versions of both with higher HD, and perhaps you should add both othem (Heal + Harm) to the "Cure" group (so that Clerics can spontaneously cast them).

Some things that are missing: CR for very damaging monsters (in HtH) / monsters with abilities with impossible DC (both of them are quite often connected to very high attributes)
"Leveled" intelligence of monsters (number of tactics/strategies that they can use) (ok... I know... Many DM play Dragons and zombies in the same way)
"Modes and flexibility" of attacks (only HtH w/o Fly, HtH + Fly/Ranged Attack, only nonmagical, only magical, nonmagical + magical)

Is there a chapter in your book on how to solve the problem of "absolutes" in a game like DnD? (Indestructible/Invulnerable/Die without Save (Vorpal and other effects)/Mor Dis Sph/etc.) and a chapter about "show stopping" spells (Save or Die/Save or Charm/...) but probably even againt "show resuming spells" (True Resurrection... Pay 5000gp and restart...)

Sample CR of monsters: you should modify the small Headings (or remove them) (Arrowhawk, barghest, celestial...), or put all the non classified monsters under "Various" (no, a Titan is not a Slaad and a Ha-Naga is not a Golem!) and you forgot two headings in the Epic Monsters... Sirrush and Slaad. And Worm that walks should be capitalized.

Oh... Yes... Do you think you will publish it before or after 3.5?

Bye

 

[kreynolds]

Upper_Krust,

Another question for ya'. What kind of modifier would you assign to a template that gets maximum hit points per each hit die? Would you base the modifier on the die type? For example, Dragons get +0.75 per die. If the dragon was guaranteed maximum hit points, what would you raise it by? I was thinking of raising it by an additional +0.25. Basically, it would end up looking something like this...

CR +1/HD Dragons
CR +0.95/HD Outsider
CR +0.9/HD Magical Beasts
CR +0.85/HD Monstrous Humanoids; Shapechangers and (Intelligent) Undead
CR +0.8/HD Aberrations; Beasts; Elementals; Giants and Humanoids
CR +0.75/HD Animals; Constructs; Fey; Oozes; Plants; (Mindless) Undead and Vermin.

What do you think? Anyone else's input would be valuable as well.

 

[seasong]

Ya' think? Shall we take a look at odds? It truly is less likely, BUT I'll bet the chances are closer than you think. Try to keep up with me if you can.

Anubis is correct. His incidental math is wrong, however, and that causes me pain. Here is the corrected math:

Incidentally, I'm assuming 13 hp for the hobgoblins (avg roll + CON).
Sorcerer winning initiative: 30%
Rolling 4 or higher on 2d4 for sleep: 81.25%
First hobgoblin fails save (DC 13): 55%
Second hobgoblin fails save (DC 13): 55%
Possible damages (12.5% chance of each): 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 (dead), 18 (dead), 21 (dead)
Total chance of 1st hobgoblin dying (damage OR failed save): 67.5%
Total chance of 2nd hobgoblin dying (damage OR failed save): 67.5%

If a hobgoblin doesn't die, he wakes up, and the sorcerer has a fight on his hands.

Chance of success: 3.36% (rounded to 3 significant digits)

This is one of those tactics that seems good until put in practice. In practice, AFTER you've won initiative (which is unlikely), you roll those 2d4s and pray, pray, pray to the dice gods not to roll a pair of ones. Then you watch the DM roll saves and pray, pray, pray to the dice gods to roll low. Then you gulp, take your spear, and realize that you might not kill them... in fact, after everything you've just done in this combat, you still only have slightly less than a 50% chance of doing sufficient damage to kill them in one blow.

So you run away, and take whatever the DM decides the "overcome XP" is for the harrowing initial rolls. Anyone who thinks this isn't a tough fight hasn't tried it, or got very lucky. And "lucky rolls" is sufficient for high XP.