Eldorian.
Eldorian said:
I know I said I would ignore you...
I don't remember you saying as much. Anubis just said as much (but I see below that he reneged on that already).
Eldorian said:
4 goblins = EL4 is right. UK said 4 goblins is a EL +3 encounter for a first level party. 4-1 is 3.
To me it sounded like Upper_Krust was saying they were EL3 (period). I see Upper_Krust has made the same point you did. I'll let this reply stand for all.
Eldorian said:
CR.. CR... You mean EL? Your PCs must be powerful indeed if 4 goblins take them 20% of their resources. Or perhaps you have parties greater than 5 people?
Nope. Standard first level characters.
Eldorian said:
Your appeal to the prismatic dragon is childish, btw. It is much more than EL +3, as the golbins were. EL +9 from my calculations. That's high enough for "background only"
You missed the ball completely here. I chose the very old prismatic dragon *precisely* because it is an EL +9 encounter (to illustrate how 20th level characters are reduced to fragility).
Eldorian said:
Um... first level parties have one Hit die. Weapons deal around one die worth of damage at all levels. Only at the first few levels are characters able to be killed in one hit from a melee weapon, barring criticals. They also have limited resources with which to counteract these one hit kills, such as healing spells. Trust me, the only levels at which PC mortality is higher is after save or die spells become prevalent, but by then you have resurrection, so it doesn't matter.
...
And every challenge to a first level party, well, that includes a monster capable of dealing around 5-10 points of damage in one round, does make them face up to their own mortality, because it's quite common for 1st level PCs to only have 5-10 HP at first level.
Which is exactly why "lower level" encounters should be rated with decreasing increments of CR to EL (in the same way that "higher-level" encounter are rated with increasing increments of CR to EL); to accurately and proportionately represent their challenges at those levels. This was the gist* of previous post.
By-the-by, regarding your initial comments (about ignoring me), if your self-righteous worthiness is going step down from the clouds again in the future, then either respond to my post *in entirely* or stay in the clouds. If you're sincere, then start by reading my original post again. You managed to selectively skip over the gist* of it.
Funny that.
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Anubis.
Anubis said:
Taunting me? Well then, consider me back on the job to shoot you down once and for all.
And this would be how easily you justify your own hypocrisy?
Thought so.
Anubis said:
An EL 1 encounter would be a 20% encounter.
Look at that. You
can teach an old dog new tricks. If 4 goblin warriors take up more than 20% of 1st level character resources, then your playtesting counts for nothing. Not that I counted your... I don't know what to call it ... (idea of playtesting?) as much more than that. So don't worry, you didn't fall that far in my standing.
Anubis said:
Not really. The problem is that low level characters will die in one or two hits.
Once again, which is why "lower level" encounters should be rated with decreasing increments of CR to EL. To more accurately reflect what is and what is not a challenge for lower level characters.
Anubis said:
Actually, I believe a goblin is EL 0 and four goblins is EL 4 . . . That's only if you DM them properly, of course.
*Smacks own forehead.*
How is it possible that you can be so oblivious to surrounding points?!
Anubis said:
You're best argument yet. The "um" part was very fitting.
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Howdy Upper_Krust!
Wading towards your posts take a while sometimes.
I try not to be tardy.
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
While the goblins would be fractionally less of a challenge than four 1st-level NPCs, the difference is negligible.
It isn't negliable to lower level characters, and that's the whole point (assuming you've been reading along). The increments of challenge at lower levels have to be more refined. The gap between CR and EL needs to shrink in the same way that it widens for higher-level CR to EL conversions.
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
...and at low level, characters are fragile even when faced with inferior opponents! Something which you fail to recognize.
A single skeleton with a longsword can potentially kill a 1st-level fighter with an 18 constitution in a single hit!
...
They do when facing inferior opponents.
This is a fantastic turn of events! It's like you're making my points for me. Once again, this is why lower-level encounters need smaller increments of CR to EL conversion (to more accurately represent the "fodder" to "nemesis" spectrum for lower level characters). Thank you!
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
True a CR 97 dragon would crush such a party, in fact it's an impossible (greater than EL +8) encounter.
You recognize my logic here as well (something that flew over the heads of both Eldorian and Anubis). Indeed, 20th level characters can be fragile too. Wow. With all this agreement flying back and forth, my head is spinning.
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
Virtually any opponent* can kill a 1st-level character (I'm sure there are some that probably can't but the majority certainly can) in a single round.
*almost certainly from CR 1/2 onwards.
See two replies above (the fantastic turn of events).
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
I still think its pretty much spot on. Of course at 1st-level the PCs will have the max. hp advantage as well.
...
One possibility (that I have actually just thought of) may be that CR 1/2 is actually EL -1 (since an additional character adds +2 EL).
Meaning:
CR 1/2 = EL -1 (instead of 0)
CR 1/4 = EL -3 (instead of -1)
CR 1/8 = EL -5 (instead of -2)
But this puts you in the dangerous position of 8-11 1st-level NPCs (as well as 8-11 goblins) being a 50/50 encounter for a party of four 1st-level characters instead of 6-7 1st-level NPCs or Goblins.
However, while that might seem more appropriate for the goblins (who admittedly represent the low end of CR 1/2) it seems an overbearing NPC force.
Will wonders never cease! I actually got through to you this time, even after your initial self-endorsement.
Wherever you're taking this idea? It's good. If you feel it's not perfect yet, then refine it. I think you're on the right track. At least it sounds that way to me.
