Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

As I mentioned before, I am happy with that. I'd be happier for it to be standard rather than optional but as long as it gets some attention, that's great.

No (or in Anubis-speak, ABSOLUTELY NOT!).

It's entirely consistent with the idea that danger presented is only part of the formula for awarding XP. If part of the goal is to present a standard rate of advancement, then altering XP awards is perfectly consistent.

To me that just sounds subjective though.

Yes, I guessed - my response was similarly tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Eldorian]

Hi Eldorian mate!

Handicap match eh!? Two on one.

Um.. yah... I'm American, remember. Let me go get my gun. I'll show you my "Backwoods Ball Blaster" signature move, followed by "Execution Style Double Tap" =P

I don't think its ludicrous at all, at a certain temperature fire would be converted into plasma, thats even before we take the supernatural 'element' (no pun intended) into account.

All things are possible...at a certain measure of power.

No, at a certain tempurature, hot gas would be converted to plasma. And I don't think plasma would bother a being composed of fire. And what about cold, how do you get below absolute zero? Other elements have maximuns as well, like acid. I would figure a creature immune to an element would be immune to that maximun. Sorry, but Immunity is immunity. Not almost immune. If you are opposed to absolutes, convert Immunity to some really high resistance. And redefine everything that logically should be completly immune into a new monster that isn't. But don't go claiming that it makes sense to trump immunities.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

You asked for it . . .

You forget I can no sell your attacks because I am booking this show.

*Sits Up!*

Your Kane/Taker antics won't wash with me I'm the: "KING OF THE WORLD!"

Sorry, please note that these are for DIVINE IMMUNITIES!

So what? Are you trying to say that divine immunities are 'weaker'?

Also note that this does not apply to Energy Immunity!

The Immortals Handbook does not advocate automatically giving deities Energy Immunity.

Read it and weep: "immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank." BOOYAH!

Indeed - one of D&Dgs many mistakes.

This implies, as I have stated, that immunity is immunity is immunity. Energy immunity can't be rtumped unless you create something new that can!

I have created it ~ they're called Divine Portfolios.

Well then give 'em! Don't imply that the books currently allow for it, though.

I don't remember needing to imply anything. I was simply giving points of reference.

You wish, jabroni!

*SPINNEROONI*

 

[Upper_Krust]

You say potato, I say potato.

Howdy Upper_Krust.

Hiya mate!

*Waves to other posters, lurkers, gods, and wannabe gods in attendance.*

Yoohoo!

Let us begin...

Finish is more like.

What the heck? At no point, including our MSN chats, did I say that the WotC XP progression was too fast.

I could've sworn you did...then again my short-term memory is pretty poor I could be mistaken.

I said your system was too fast at lower levels. That is all.

So change it.

This simply isn't getting through.

I understand your opinion - I just don't agree with it.

Upper_Krust, just because you justify inflated (read broken) XP awards at lower levels due to the relationship between CR and EL in your system, does pull it out of hot water.

Thank you. I agree - it does.

Your system is broken at lower levels.

I don't see how granting EXP based on the challenge is 'broken'?

Citing the way your system works as the sole argument to excuse a broken feature doesn't help your cause when *your system* doesn't work in the first place (at lower levels). The examples bear this out.

I don't believe the examples have shown any glaring flaws.

Sorry friend, but you have done nothing of the sort. Your explanations equate to "this is how the internal logic of my system works". When the internal logic of your system has been exposed "not working", that explanation no longer holds water.

So far it hasn't been though.

That's fine, but using your system, a group of four goblins is also a 50/50 encounter against a party of four PCs.

Surely they are an EL +3 encounter, rather than a +4 EL (50/50) that you attest.

That alone should tell you the system is broken at lower levels. The 300% inflated XP (from the printed values) should also set off some alarms in your head. The fact that goblins and hobgoblins are effectively treated as equal threats should call out the fire trucks.

It tells me that due to the dangers inherant in low level play (not perceived by the official rules) that the PCs are now compensated fairly (if not proportionally).

This has become your typical lament. It can't be my CR system. It must be the way you GM. It's beginning to sound like a parent who doesn't believe their child misbehaves at school because they're a perfect angel at home.

So are you saying all DMs play monsters with the same vehemence!?

Now your XP system takes outside chance luck into account?

Merely pointing out the possibility that six or seven goblins could defeat a 1st-level party. Though even with a 50/50 encounter the PCs are always fractional favourites (given that they would be four heads against the DMs one).

Don't be ridiculous. I think you know there are faults in your system. You just refuse to see them.

Not at all, I have already admitted that the system bestows increased EXP at low levels. But this increase is proportionate too the danger.

I am not trying to beat your system down Upper_Krust.

I know that mate, I appreciate your feedback.

I am trying to make your CR system work at all levels. Right now, it doesn't work proportionately at lower levels.

Why does it have to work proportionally at lower levels? Can't it just work fairly instead!?

And yes, that niggling annoying *fact* could mean restructuring the way the whole thing works ... starting by throwing out the X + 4 structure.

Its certainly modular enough for you to do so if you so wish.

No it isn't. I can slow your system down myself, by simply cutting XP in half.

Then why don't you?

That's not a problem. But I would prefer that your system work all the time. It doesn't right now. I'm surprised you're not more concerned.

The system does work all the time - it just doesn't work exactly the way you would prefer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eldorian mate!

Um.. yah... I'm American, remember. Let me go get my gun. I'll show you my "Backwoods Ball Blaster" signature move, followed by "Execution Style Double Tap" =P

No, at a certain tempurature, hot gas would be converted to plasma. And I don't think plasma would bother a being composed of fire. And what about cold, how do you get below absolute zero?

Um...magic, the supernatural.

Other elements have maximuns as well, like acid. I would figure a creature immune to an element would be immune to that maximun.

Generally speaking yes.

Sorry, but Immunity is immunity. Not almost immune. If you are opposed to absolutes, convert Immunity to some really high resistance. And redefine everything that logically should be completly immune into a new monster that isn't. But don't go claiming that it makes sense to trump immunities.

I told you that all things are possible ~ eventually.

If you want to see it from a different angle you could say that the deity in question determines who or what is immune to the effects of its portfolio.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Class abilities

Might be something to do with:

+12 insight bonus
Fear Gaze
Blindsight
SR 35
DR 25/+6
as well as a few other minor things.

D'OH!

Well, I see.....

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Howdy Upper_Krust.

*Waves to other posters, lurkers, gods, and wannabe gods in attendance.*
-----

demiurgeastaroth.

I see you're right on point ... as usual.

Takes a bow

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

If you want to see it from a different angle you could say that the deity in question determines who or what is immune to the effects of its portfolio.

I was skeptical of the "immunity can be overcome" argument, too, but this makes a lot of sense. The god of fire might well be able to decide that fire creatures no longer get their protection.
But if this is so, they ought to be able to suppress resistances, too, and I believe this debate started with the problem of resistances possibly costing more than immunities (though when does anything have more than a 100 points of resistance?).

Darren

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Personally I think fire immunity shouldn't stop all fire. Ever heard of Divine Fire damage? Huh? Oh...right...probably not, but fire done by a diety of fire should only be stopped by an equal or greater diety, not some puny-@$$ mortal with a Ring of Fire Immunity.

Hehe!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I was skeptical of the "immunity can be overcome" argument, too, but this makes a lot of sense.

Trust in your Uncle Krust.

The god of fire might well be able to decide that fire creatures no longer get their protection.

Indeed.

But if this is so, they ought to be able to suppress resistances, too, and I believe this debate started with the problem of resistances possibly costing more than immunities (though when does anything have more than a 100 points of resistance?).

Again this is handled in a roundabout manner that I don't really want to get into now. Lets just say its all very neat and tidy.