Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[demiurgeastaroth]

Hiya mate!
Arbitrarily.

Maybe so, but this is an acceptance of the fact that it's hard to get a tool to do the job perfectly. I have no problem with "arbitrary" modifiers, if those modifiers are applied with a specific consistent goal in mind - and then you could argue they aren't arbitrary at all.

Does you social engineering take into account the higher proportional mortality rate amongst low-level adventurers?

It doesn't need to, to fulfil the social engineering goal. That's just a fact of playing at low level.

quote:
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Originally posted by demiurgeastaroth
How odd. I'm sure I've not seen a stastical survey capable of producing those numbers. Can you quote a source? Thought not.
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Wasn't that in Dragon Magazine a few issues ago...?

I wouldn't know about that, as I don't read it. In fact, the number of DnD roleplayers I d know that read is very small (1 out of a dozen) - so based on this, such a survey probably isn't a representative survey and I can ignore it. Ha!

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Class abilities

Hi UK!

Hi Sorcica mate!

I've been lobbying for this before, and now I'm at it again..
I would really love to see some sort of listing of what you'd rate the different class abilities as being in CR adjustment.

Simply try and rate every ability by contasting it to a similar feat.

Total all factors over 20 levels then divide by 20 and add them to the HD/Save/BAB/ etc. progression as outlined under design parameters.

I know that there's no room for it in the pdf, but maybe post your notes here or as a supplement or similar.
It would make it easy to create monsters and PrC's etc.

The problem with this is that you give people an inch and they take a mile.

Theres always going to be some new class ability or some new monster ability that someone wants rated. Which is why I would rather show people how to design their own as opposed to (the neverending journey) of equating every power and ability conceived.

Fx. even though I can just subtract a rogue's HD, saves, skills etc and thereby find out what the CR mod is per lvl, it's still hard for (at least for me) to judge what 1 die of sneak attack is worth. My hunch says the same as a feat, +0.2 CR, but I'm still a little lost. Pleeeeease?

Lets go through the Rogue then...

Ability Scores CR +0.025
BAB (As Cleric) CR +0.1
Feats CR +0.066
Hit Points CR +0.2
Saves CR +0.1
Skill Points CR +0.08

Total Before Class Features: CR +0.571/Level

- Sneak Attack: (1d6 = 1 feat ~ as per the ELH). Therefore over 20 levels 10d6 = CR +2.
- Traps: each ability seems about half as powerful as a feat = CR +0.3
- Evasion: Quite powerful, I would actually suggest at least the equivalent of two feats. CR +0.4
- Uncanny Dodge: first two comparable to a feat; but the trap bonus is probably only worth an extra feat every four points = CR +0.6
- Special Ability: each roughly comparable to a feat = CR +0.8

Total: CR +4.1 divided by 20 = +0.205

Rogue total:

CR 0.571 + 0.205 = 0.776 (within the 0.76 to 0.84 boundaries)

Something else: considering the heated discussion on SR and CR etc., I think it would be a good idea to release a version 4 of the CR system, before publishing it in the final form in the IH. Obivously, there are still some issuses open for debate....
Just my opinion, anyway.

I'm sure everyone would like me to release a v.4.

BTW, what will the power level be for deities in the IH. Meaning, will deities correspond in power to the deities in D&D and F&P? Just curious.

The power level will be similar, but not exact. Using the Template format everything is both a lot simpler and a lot more flexible.

I also advocate slightly differing (average) HD/Class Levels so in that respect Demigods (30-40 HD/Levels on average) will be slightly weaker and Greater Gods (80-120 HD/Levels on average) will be slightly more powerful.

stay cool -

I'm already cooler than Bobby Drake.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Maybe so, but this is an acceptance of the fact that it's hard to get a tool to do the job perfectly. I have no problem with "arbitrary" modifiers, if those modifiers are applied with a specific consistent goal in mind - and then you could argue they aren't arbitrary at all.

I prefer to avoid arbitrary solutions where possible, but I am willing to concede that sometimes they are necessary. However in this instance I don't believe they are necessary - and therefore optional.

It doesn't need to, to fulfil the social engineering goal. That's just a fact of playing at low level.

Doesn't that notion seem a little hypocritical?

I wouldn't know about that, as I don't read it. In fact, the number of DnD roleplayers I d know that read is very small (1 out of a dozen) - so based on this, such a survey probably isn't a representative survey and I can ignore it. Ha!

I was only playin' with ya'.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Re: Re: Class abilities

Hi Sorcica mate!

YO!

Simply try and rate every ability by contasting it to a similar feat.

Total all factors over 20 levels then divide by 20 and add them to the HD/Save/BAB/ etc. progression as outlined under design parameters.

I know, I know. It's just that I'm uncertain om some abilities, like for instance Divine favor - which is powerful, but only if you have high charisma.
But your example with the rogue really helps to clarify things. Thanks!

The problem with this is that you give people an inch and they take a mile.

You bet!

Theres always going to be some new class ability or some new monster ability that someone wants rated. Which is why I would rather show people how to design their own as opposed to (the neverending journey) of equating every power and ability conceived.

Now, who could that someone be?

Lets go through the Rogue then...

<snip>

Thanks!

One question: How do you get the Gloom to be CR 35. Don't have the book, but as far as I remember it's 25 HD (monstrous hum.), 13d6 sneak attack and a +10 keen human dread dagger (+18 total).
Let's see, thats (25*0.6= 15) + (13*0.2= 2.6) = 17.6
The dagger costs 18*18*2*10*1000 = 6480000, which requires lvl 41 PC wealth (41*41*41*100= 6892100). That's +8.2.
So far we have 17.6 + 8.2 = 25.8 CR. I remember some spell-like abilities and that a gloom always moves silently, but not to add +9-10 CR ?? (after all, casting spells as a 20th lvl wiz adds only +7 CR).
So??

I'm sure everyone would like me to release a v.4.

Yes! How else will we be able to start a 600+ post thread?

The power level will be similar, but not exact. Using the Template format everything is both a lot simpler and a lot more flexible.

I also advocate slightly differing (average) HD/Class Levels so in that respect Demigods (30-40 HD/Levels on average) will be slightly weaker and Greater Gods (80-120 HD/Levels on average) will be slightly more powerful.

Looking forward to checking it out!

I'm already cooler than Bobby Drake.

True.


- See Ya

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Hiya mate!
I prefer to avoid arbitrary solutions where possible, but I am willing to concede that sometimes they are necessary. However in this instance I don't believe they are necessary - and therefore optional.

As I mentioned before, I am happy with that. I'd be happier for it to be standard rather than optional but as long as it gets some attention, that's great.

Doesn't that notion seem a little hypocritical?

No (or in Anubis-speak, ABSOLUTELY NOT!). It's entirely consistent with the idea that danger presented is only part of the formula for awarding XP. If part of the goal is to present a standard rate of advancement, then altering XP awards is perfectly consistent.

I was only playin' with ya'.

Yes, I guessed - my response was similarly tongue-in-cheek.

Darren

 

[Anubis]

Um.. I was kinda agreeing with you Anubis. Immunity is immunity.

I didn't notice the sarcasm in there. Sorry about that. Hahaha.

No no no, friend. See, your system is exactly my system, except you add EL to the SR value after it's calculated. We calculate it the same way, and rate it for CR the same way. My experiment was to find a monster, calculate it's Eldorian SR and it's Anubin SR, and then test that against various spell casters trying to over come it. Since a Drow has SR 11 + EL in your system, it has SR 11 in mine. In your system, you add you EL to a d20 roll to penetrate, and in mine you add your EL minus their EL to your d20. Which is easier, a constantly changing stat that always adds the same amount to CR, or a constant stat that always adds the same amount to CR?

The problem with yours (and the difference between the two systems) is that you use overall EL whereas I use relative EL. The relative EL allows advancement as it should be according to the rules, whereas your system would allow, say, a wizard with 100 fighter levels to use those fighter levels to help spell penetration. Your system also gives creatures more SR even if all they gain is HD. I have a problem with that. I want to keep values as close to the original as possible.

In your system, a Lemure with 2000 HD would be impossible for a Level 4 Wizard to penetrate the SR because you use the current EL. By my system, since a Lemure's SR never advances, the same Lemure with 2000 HD would still only have SR 11 and would be easily hurt by the magic of a Level 4 Wizard. See the difference now?

Anyways, I'm thinking that SR should work more like AC for the system anyways, and that it's not SR that the system gets wrong, but magic immunity.

I'd rather not change the basis of SR, though, seeing as SR is one of the things I don't find to be broken. The only need for any change is to make it compatible with the new CR/EL system, that's all.

First of all, as Anubis said, thats first ed. And second of all, I find it ludicrous that fire elementals ever take damage from fire. They are fire. And I seriously doubt the 1e Manual of the Planes spells center wrong =P

Eldorian Antar

Yeah!

Hi Anubis mate!

Just bring it!

How narrow minded.

You asked for it . . .

*Spinebuster*

3rd Ed. Deities & Demigods Page 26. (Under Immunities)

"...Unless otherwise indicated these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank."

*Kips Up*

*Krust Bottom*

*Sits Up!*

Sorry, please note that these are for DIVINE IMMUNITIES! Also note that this does not apply to Energy Immunity! Read it and weep: "immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank." BOOYAH!

This implies, as I have stated, that immunity is immunity is immunity. Energy immunity can't be rtumped unless you create something new that can!

There are no cosmic powers in 3rd Edition; no Elder Gods; no Time Lords; no deities with epic levels; no soul objects; no proper CR/EL system and no method for determining why God A is more powerful than God B - Why!? BECAUSE I HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM TO YOU YET!

Well then give 'em! Don't imply that the books currently allow for it, though.

*The People's Elbow*

*1-2-3*

You wish, jabroni!

 

[Anubis]

Hey UK, just implement my idea for PEL modifier for DMs who want slower advancement or do not play monsters properly!

If you treat goblinoids as cannon fodder only and play them as meat, PEL +4.

If you want to slow advancement for PCs, PEL +4.

Just modify the PEL for your own designs. Don't come cryin' to us though when PC mortality goes up 400% and PC advancement drops down to 6.25% of optimal levels!

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Hey UK, just implement my idea for PEL modifier for DMs who want slower advancement or do not play monsters properly!

If you treat goblinoids as cannon fodder only and play them as meat, PEL +4.

If you want to slow advancement for PCs, PEL +4.

Problem: this affects all levels, not just the low levels.

Just modify the PEL for your own designs. Don't come cryin' to us though when PC mortality goes up 400% and PC advancement drops down to 6.25% of optimal levels!

If you're saying PC mortality will go up if you arbitrarily restrict XP to inaccurate ratings at low levels, how can this be? The current system apparentl already include this inaccuracy, so mortality shouldn't go up from what it is already.
In any case, GMs will put PCs up against the challenges they feel they can take - there's no reason to assume that changing the amount of XP they gain would suddenly drive them to increase the danger of their opponents. This doesn't make sense on several levels.

Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Howdy Upper_Krust.

*Waves to other posters, lurkers, gods, and wannabe gods in attendance.*

Let us begin...

I don't agree.

While you believe the WotC EXP progression is already too fast (which is a fair enough), for me it's the default standard I am working towards.

What the heck? At no point, including our MSN chats, did I say that the WotC XP progression was too fast. I said your system was too fast at lower levels. That is all.

Yes my system does grant even more EXP than the official method at low levels, but this is due to the relationship between CR and EL at those levels.

This simply isn't getting through.

Upper_Krust, just because you justify inflated (read broken) XP awards at lower levels due to the relationship between CR and EL in your system, does pull it out of hot water. Your system is broken at lower levels. Citing the way your system works as the sole argument to excuse a broken feature doesn't help your cause when *your system* doesn't work in the first place (at lower levels). The examples bear this out.

On the contrary I have already explained time and time again my reasoning for the CR/EL relationship.

Sorry friend, but you have done nothing of the sort. Your explanations equate to "this is how the internal logic of my system works". When the internal logic of your system has been exposed "not working", that explanation no longer holds water.

Based on my system a group of six or seven goblins would be a 50/50 encounter for a party of four 1st level PCs. Personally I stand by that.

That's fine, but using your system, a group of four goblins is also a 50/50 encounter against a party of four PCs. That alone should tell you the system is broken at lower levels. The 300% inflated XP (from the printed values) should also set off some alarms in your head. The fact that goblins and hobgoblins are effectively treated as equal threats should call out the fire trucks.

...of course if you play the goblins as mere cannon-fodder then its unlikely they will represent the full extent of their rating.

This has become your typical lament. It can't be my CR system. It must be the way you GM. It's beginning to sound like a parent who doesn't believe their child misbehaves at school because they're a perfect angel at home. It's not surprising that Anubis jumped on your weakest point like a terrier.

Even with your example all it would take would be one or two lucky rolls and your PCs would still be defeated. The EXP simply bears this out.

Now your XP system takes outside chance luck into account? Don't be ridiculous. I think you know there are faults in your system. You just refuse to see them. I am not trying to beat your system down Upper_Krust. I am trying to make your CR system work at all levels. Right now, it doesn't work proportionately at lower levels. And yes, that niggling annoying *fact* could mean restructuring the way the whole thing works ... starting by throwing out the X + 4 structure.

That has nothing to do with how intuitive the system is - it's simply a matter of wanting slower than standard progression, or not; as the case may be.

No it isn't. I can slow your system down myself, by simply cutting XP in half. That's not a problem. But I would prefer that your system work all the time. It doesn't right now. I'm surprised you're not more concerned.

-----

Anubis.

Your entire post can be cleared up by requoting myself ... once.

Originally posted by Sonofapreacherman
When two identical challenge ratings finally equal a 50/50 encounter, only then will we have an intuitive Challenge Rating system. Everything else can be reverse engineered from there...

If any further explanation is needed, just ask. I'll be more than willing to screw your head on properly.



-----

demiurgeastaroth.

I see you're right on point ... as usual.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Class abilities

YO!

BOOYAKASHA!

I know, I know. It's just that I'm uncertain on some abilities, like for instance Divine favor - which is powerful, but only if you have high charisma.
But your example with the rogue really helps to clarify things. Thanks!

Glad I could help mate.

Now, who could that someone be?

Best not to name names.

Thanks!

No problem mate.

One question: How do you get the Gloom to be CR 35. Don't have the book, but as far as I remember it's 25 HD (monstrous hum.), 13d6 sneak attack and a +10 keen human dread dagger (+18 total).
Let's see, thats (25*0.6= 15) + (13*0.2= 2.6) = 17.6
The dagger costs 18*18*2*10*1000 = 6480000, which requires lvl 41 PC wealth (41*41*41*100= 6892100). That's +8.2.
So far we have 17.6 + 8.2 = 25.8 CR. I remember some spell-like abilities and that a gloom always moves silently, but not to add +9-10 CR ?? (after all, casting spells as a 20th lvl wiz adds only +7 CR).
So??

Might be something to do with:

+12 insight bonus
Fear Gaze
Blindsight
SR 35
DR 25/+6
as well as a few other minor things.

Yes! How else will we be able to start a 600+ post thread?

You mean another one...

Looking forward to checking it out!

Appreciate the interest mate.

True.