Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Sonofapreacherman]

Looking forward to it. I am curious about one thing however. I know you claim that "writing" is not your best skill, but will there be more paragraphs about "how-to-use-the-rules" in this version? That is really the key to getting this system widely embraced. Something more than "final product examples" this time, but rather, a little description on how you got there ... no matter how basic it may seem to you (and many of us).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Looking forward to it. I am curious about one thing however. I know you claim that "writing" is not your best skill,

I am good enough when I put my mind to it, I just don't like wasting words...shall we say.

but will there be more paragraphs about "how-to-use-the-rules" in this version?

Yes, as well as some 'when to use...' sections.

That is really the key to getting this system widely embraced.

Probably.

Something more than "final product examples" this time, but rather, a little description on how you got there ... no matter how basic it may seem to you (and many of us).

I must admit I hadn't thought of pursuing this direction, but its something I may look into.

 

[Eldorian]

Once again... I have to come out and say that fractional CRs are nonsense. The system doesn't take into account ability modifiers, which, everyone must admit (except maybe anubis), do have some effect on gameplay, in terms of challenge. How can the system claim to be accurate to within a fraction of a CR if it doesn't take this into account? Indeed, how can it be accurate at all? I'm actually beginning to lose faith in the system due to this lack. How can it approach accuracy if it doesn't take into account a major feature of the game? Even with design parameters, a creature with the top of the line for his size catagory compared to a creature with bottom of the line is a huge difference in power.

I mean, the system takes into account factors which have less significance than ability scores, like bonuses to skills and very situational abilities like burrowing and darkvision. I mean.. stupidmonster_1 with straight tens and darkvision is harder than stupidmonster_2 with straight 14s and normal vision? I'm just thinking we can't get away with dropping ability scores, and the discussion on fractional CRs has brought this to light.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Eldorian.

The system doesn't take into account ability modifiers, which, everyone must admit (except maybe anubis), do have some effect on gameplay, in terms of challenge. How can the system claim to be accurate to within a fraction of a CR if it doesn't take this into account?

Because all this system purports to offer are more accurate guidelines than the current system. Right now, the current system offers lose guidelines with which to measure Challenge Rating (that have been largely proven inaccurate). So in the end, all Upper_Krust is offering is a more accurate "estimate of CR" ... but still a guide nonetheless (albeit empowering player with quantifiable knowledge, rather than waiting for WotC to hand down their latest batch of CR guesses).

There is so much variance with ability scores that not only would it be too cumbersome to continually track them (especially when ability scores are modified on the fly by spells, monster abilities, and poisons), but until those ability scores reach epic levels, average ability scores (the most universally common; as opposed to all 18s) simply don't significantly impact Upper_Krust's more accurate "estimate of CR".

If you're trying to make his system any more complicated than that, you're spinning your own wheels. If over-complication is your bag, then hey, go crazy. I'm sure your can whip up some values for ability scores in your own game ... should they be needed that urgently. But they really aren't needed here.



No offense.

 

[Coredump]

I think his point is one of relative accuracy. If a creature like a Balor has a 21 str, or a 26 Str, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. But if a creature like an orc has a 13 Str or a 16 str; it makes a much bigger difference.
I think his point is that when worrying about tiny differences of CR, a difference of ability scores may warrant a change from 1/8 to 1/6 quite easily.

And it has been my impression that it has not be UK's claim that "all Upper_Krust is offering is a more accurate'estimate of C' ... but still a guide nonetheless ". It has been my impression from his statements that it has been meant as a 'complete formula'.

One of the assumptions UK seems to make is that ability scores scale pretty linearly with HD. Which is why the CR gets thrown off pretty badly by things like the colossal scorpion and such. The CR can be a 'complete formula' only when the monster creation process is strictly formulaic.

And it has yet to be proven to me that UK's system is much more accurate/useful to warrent a change. I have found a number of (what appear to be) broken CR's in the UK system also. [Yes UK, I will post them for discussion, I was just waiting for the wealth/fractional topics to run their course.]

.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Anubis

Could you please elaborate something for me?
One of my players would like to play either a Bugbear or an Ogre. So I calculated their CR to find the ECL (adding wealth). And just to make sure, I checked them with your CR's, posted on p. 6 of this thread.
You mark the Bugbear at CR 2.15 and the Ogre at CR 4.2.

I get:

BUGBEAR

3 hum. HD: +1.65 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.3 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Stat Mods: +0.6 CR
Total: +2.75 CR

and

OGRE

4 giant HD: +2.2 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.5 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Large: +1.5 CR
Stat Mod outside parameters for L size: -0.6 CR
Total: +3.8 CR

So what am I screwing up? UK has confirmed (somewhere in this thread) that only stat mods outside the parameters for size affect CR. So I don't get it.

I think that I'm right with the Bugbear, as 3 lvls of wealth will add up to CR 3.35 - fine for a PC.

However, CR 3.8 for the Ogre is too low. Here, the 4.2 is much better, as 5 lvls of wealth will give CR 5.2 - fine for a PC.

What am I missing. Thanks in advance for any reply.

Others are of course welcome to add their comments as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Once again... I have to come out and say that fractional CRs are nonsense.

I can't agree with that.

I wouldn't proffer they were perfect, but the system is more accurate with them, than without fractional CRs, regardless of any other problems we encounter.

The system doesn't take into account ability modifiers, which, everyone must admit (except maybe anubis), do have some effect on gameplay, in terms of challenge.

Well it takes Ability Score modifiers for Size (and a few other things) into account.

One of the problems I have is trying to retrofit the system when WotC break their own parameters, typically with regards size based modifiers.

I have also been considering a modifier for low Intelligence, since I have given one for 'mindless'.

How can the system claim to be accurate to within a fraction of a CR if it doesn't take this into account? Indeed, how can it be accurate at all?

Challenge Rating revolves around what parallels PCs of a certain level. Unless you plan on penalising PCs for rolling up high ability scores (increased ECL) there is always going to be that element of luck about rolling up a character.

I'm actually beginning to lose faith in the system due to this lack.

Sorry to hear this mate.

I'm all ears as to your better solution...?

How can it approach accuracy if it doesn't take into account a major feature of the game?

Any DM can input Ability Scores as a factor if they so wish.

What you have to ask yourself is how detailed do you want to get?

Even with design parameters, a creature with the top of the line for his size catagory compared to a creature with bottom of the line is a huge difference in power.

Can you show me a creature that breaks the system without breaking the Design Parameters?

I mean, the system takes into account factors which have less significance than ability scores, like bonuses to skills and very situational abilities like burrowing and darkvision. I mean.. stupidmonster_1 with straight tens and darkvision is harder than stupidmonster_2 with straight 14s and normal vision?

The reason these take precedence is because they are non-standard, in that there is no give and take; unlike ability scores where PCs can roll up varying ability scores. Again, this comes back to high ability scores essentially being treated in a similar light to lucky dice rolls (which in effect they are).

I'm just thinking we can't get away with dropping ability scores, and the discussion on fractional CRs has brought this to light.

...just when I thought everything was going well too.

Appreciate the feedback nonetheless mate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Coredump mate!

I think his point is one of relative accuracy. If a creature like a Balor has a 21 str, or a 26 Str, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. But if a creature like an orc has a 13 Str or a 16 str; it makes a much bigger difference.

See my previous reply to Eldorian.

I think his point is that when worrying about tiny differences of CR, a difference of ability scores may warrant a change from 1/8 to 1/6 quite easily.

The difference between CR 1/8 and 1/6 is an entire point of CR by my system lets remember.

CR -2 = CR 1/6
CR -3 = CR 1/8

And it has been my impression that it has not be UK's claim that "all Upper_Krust is offering is a more accurate'estimate of C' ... but still a guide nonetheless ". It has been my impression from his statements that it has been meant as a 'complete formula'.

There is never going to be perfect accuracy, but I always strived for accuracy to within fractions, and I think for the most part I have achieved that.

One of the assumptions UK seems to make is that ability scores scale pretty linearly with HD. Which is why the CR gets thrown off pretty badly by things like the colossal scorpion and such. The CR can be a 'complete formula' only when the monster creation process is strictly formulaic.

If WotC state that a Colossal creature gains 'x' benefits then they turn around and create a Colossal creature without those benefits then obviously there are going to be problems, but they are not problems inherant in my system.

And it has yet to be proven to me that UK's system is much more accurate/useful to warrent a change. I have found a number of (what appear to be) broken CR's in the UK system also.

No time like the present mate, lets see them.

Yes UK, I will post them for discussion, I was just waiting for the wealth/fractional topics to run their course.

Thats pretty much over.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

Anubis

Could you please elaborate something for me?

Well I'm not Anubis but I know the system fairly well.

One of my players would like to play either a Bugbear or an Ogre.

Excellent.

So I calculated their CR to find the ECL (adding wealth). And just to make sure, I checked them with your CR's, posted on p. 6 of this thread.
You mark the Bugbear at CR 2.15 and the Ogre at CR 4.2.

I get:

BUGBEAR

3 hum. HD: +1.65 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.3 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Stat Mods: +0.6 CR
Total: +2.75 CR

They also have a +4 skill modifier but that only equates to a +0.08 CR bonus.

Remember to factor PC Wealth, +0.6 for 3rd-level (since 2nd-level wealth would still take them above CR 3). Total ECL +3.43 (3)

Essentially you are getting: +6 to ability scores, +3 to natural armour, darkvision and a +4 move silently bonus instead of class features.

and

OGRE

4 giant HD: +2.2 CR
Nat. Armor: +0.5 CR
Darkvis.: +0.2 CR
Large: +1.5 CR
Stat Mod outside parameters for L size: -0.6 CR
Total: +3.8 CR

Speed: -0.1
Do Ogres get Darkvision? (Is that in the errata?)

3.5 I get; with +0.8 for wealth for Total ECL 4.3 (4)

So what am I screwing up? UK has confirmed (somewhere in this thread) that only stat mods outside the parameters for size affect CR. So I don't get it.

Looks okay to me.

Of the two the Ogre seems to have the most visceral impact for the ECL. On the surface it may even look too powerful for its ECL, but remember that Ogre BAB and HD is not as good as a fighters/barbarians and those negative ability score penalties may hurt it and it also has no class features.

I think that I'm right with the Bugbear, as 3 lvls of wealth will add up to CR 3.35 - fine for a PC.

Yeah you had that one pegged pretty well.

However, CR 3.8 for the Ogre is too low. Here, the 4.2 is much better, as 5 lvls of wealth will give CR 5.2 - fine for a PC.

What am I missing. Thanks in advance for any reply.

I'm curious about this too.

Others are of course welcome to add their comments as well.

Thanks...I will.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

They also have a +4 skill modifier but that only equates to a +0.08 CR bonus.

Speed: -0.1
Do Ogres get Darkvision? (Is that in the errata?)

3.5 I get; with +0.8 for wealth for Total ECL 4.3 (4)

Yeah, I ignored the skill bonus - so small.

And no, Ogres do not get darkvision. My bad

Thanks for the reply, UK. Seems that I'm getting the system after all.
But then I don't get Anubis' numbers

BTW, I think that if I claimed that a Ogre only was ECL 4 over on the Wizards boards, there would be an uprising. Maybe it's a little too low?
Honestly, thinking of it, I don't think so. But there sure is a big difference between ECL 4 as suggested by you and ECL 6 as suggested by wizards...

Later,