Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hi Sorcica mate!



True. I think ECL +0.2/Spell-like Ability (At Will/Always Active) is probably right. With possibly +0.04/use up to x5.

Uhm, I don't have the pdf on this computer. Would you mind giving as example what the ECL of being able to use heal at will is?
And what about Dimension Door?

Thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there mate!

Uhm, I don't have the pdf on this computer. Would you mind giving as example what the ECL of being able to use heal at will is?
And what about Dimension Door?

Thanks.

Depends on the spell level.

Minimums:

Heal 6 (spell level) x 11 (caster level) x 0.0025 = +0.165

+0.2 for ECL = +0.365

Minimum 11 Hit Dice (design parameter)


Dimension Door 4 x 7 x 0.0025 = +0.07

+0.2 for ECL = +0.27

Minimum 7 Hit Dice (Design Parameter)

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hi there mate!



Depends on the spell level.

Minimums:

Heal 6 (spell level) x 11 (caster level) x 0.0025 = +0.165

+0.2 for ECL = +0.365

Minimum 11 Hit Dice (design parameter)


Dimension Door 4 x 7 x 0.0025 = +0.07

+0.2 for ECL = +0.27

Minimum 7 Hit Dice (Design Parameter)

Thanks for that.

This is what I mean. Let's say you are around 12th lvl. You get some sort of template that allows you to cast heal at will. Wham! For free, basically.
If you got regen 1, you'd have to pay 2 lvl's or something. What can be done about this?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Thanks for that.

No problem mate!

This is what I mean. Let's say you are around 12th lvl. You get some sort of template that allows you to cast heal at will. Wham! For free, basically.

If you got regen 1, you'd have to pay 2 lvl's or something. What can be done about this?

It does seem something of an incongruity. I'll have to have a think about it.

 

[kreynolds]

If you got regen 1, you'd have to pay 2 lvl's or something. What can be done about this?

Regen converts most types of damage into subdual. A creature with heal at will can still be killed with a boatload of slashing damage, but a boatload of slashing damage converted into subdual damage won't kill a thing. It'll knock it out though, that's for sure. Anyway, all I'm saying is that I don't necessarily think that regen is over-valued, but more that heal at will is undervalued. It's one of those at will spells that simply breaks the formula.

 

[Anubis]

As for the hobgoblin ambush . . . Well, IIRC, an ambush can be done even *without* Darkvision, and ambushes have always been covered under situational modifiers. So no, I doubt your hobgoblins' Darkvision made *the* difference in the encounter.

You guys can count Darkvision and Scent all you want, I refuse to count an ability that 90% of all creatures have (Darkvision) and an ability with almost no use other than pinpointing invisible creatures within five feet (Scent).

For the problem with rating carious useful abilities, um, how about NO ADDITIONAL ECL MODIFIER? As kreynolds pointed out many times, things are not magically more useful for PCs. The PCs are supposed to have an "advantage" anyway.

Personally, I won't be counting Darkvision or Scent and I damn sure won't add an ECL penalty (that's what it is) for PCs with special abilities. The CR modifier is more than enough. As for Heal, if you use UK's revised Heal, it no longer breaks.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

For the problem with rating carious useful abilities, um, how about NO ADDITIONAL ECL MODIFIER? As kreynolds pointed out many times, things are not magically more useful for PCs. The PCs are supposed to have an "advantage" anyway.

Personally, I won't be counting Darkvision or Scent and I damn sure won't add an ECL penalty (that's what it is) for PCs with special abilities. The CR modifier is more than enough. As for Heal, if you use UK's revised Heal, it no longer breaks.

I disagree. Even cure light wounds at will would be underrated at the cost Heal currently has. I'm leaning towards the argument that there should be no extra penalty for ECL compared to CR, but then the CR adjustment should be higher.

Sure, Cure Light Wounds or UK's heal might not be as effective in combat as the core Heal, but assuming the PC survives, his and all the partys damage will be gone in a few rounds.
Clearly that's worth more than +0.4 CR?

Many other spells share this sort of problem if they are usable as will, IMO.
Not sure what the solution is, though, as raising the cost might increase the CR of monsters with many spell-like abilities to stupid levels.

Comments?

 

[kreynolds]

Comments?

Only one, which just occured to me. In regards to the "big fat ECL modifier for cool stuff that PCs get which are normally restricted to monsters 'cause their just so darn cool", I think I just found my own peace on my opinion of the matter (which should be clear after reading this). Here it is...

In all my gaming, every time I have ever seen a party go up against a troll when they had no foreknowledge of what they were facing, thus nobody had thought "hey, let's stock up on fire stuff", the troll is just as deadly as a PC with regen. Of course, one cannot ignore the fact that a single troll really isn't truly _that_ deadly to the party, seeing as how its outnumbered 4 to 1, but you get the point. If the troll is an exception to most in that it actually has a fear of death, i.e. it isn't stupid, then it's even more deadly, as it won't be stupid enough to just fight to the death. After all, generally, PCs won't fight to the death if they don't have to. If they have a better option, such as fleeing and fighting another day, they'll take it.

The same, though far worse, applies to a demon or devil with regen when the party has no holy weapons...and seriously, how often have you heard of someone keeping more than one vial of holy water with them at all times?

Anyway, I still think that the only difference between a PC with regen (or similar) and a monster with regen (or similar) all boils down to the DM being affraid of some hard work, and in all honesty, when it comes down to a demon with regen, if played smartly (especially when deserving because of a good Intelligence, etc), they can plague a party 'til just about the end of their days. I know. I've done it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Personally I don't really have a problem with CR and ECL being identical. I may remove the seperate ECL mods, I haven't decided yet.

Certain abilities will naturally see more use in PC hands and this could unbalance a low-mid level game if the DM is not careful. I guess a seperate ECL bonus for them was an arbitrary way of reddressing a 'possible' balance issue, rather than a definite one.

 

[kreynolds]

UK. Perhaps a small passage pointing out some of the pitfalls would be appropriate. Something along the lines of "Things To Watch Out For". You could make mention of any forms of special healing, for example. The passage could also suggest some flat ECL modifiers for such special circumstances (+0.2, +0.3, etc, etc), that way, if a DM was worried about it, he could use them. Besides, if at higher level an ability (such as fireball at will, or something) is no longer a problem, the DM could then just drop the adhoc ECL modifier. That would give the player a breath of fresh air and bring their ECL a little closer to their actual power level. I think that would be a better idea than incorporating the adhock ECL modifiers right into the rules.