Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Leopold]

arrrrrrgggggghhhh!!!!

BFD thread coming!!!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Leopold mate!

uk=teh fibber!!

I know dude. I feel terrible about it. But I don't think people realise the grind of having to revise every core and epic Challenge Rating (again).

Having to do one; two; five or even ten is a breeze but hundreds upon hundreds in a short space of time is like having entropy bear down on you, it really is.

 

[Cergorach]

Probably best if I keep my mouth shut and just say it'll be finished when its finished. I made the grievous error last week of changing elements of v4 while I was halfway through determining the CRs. Of course the changes were for the better but having to start them all again was like getting hit by a mental sledgehammer.

Gosh, that's what i was afraid of, doing all those calculations by hand is mindnumbing and prone to error.

Is the core of v4 still the same, adding/substracting points for the different qualities of each creature to come to the total CR?

I have something in mind, i'll start tomorrow (if work allows).
- An admin screen where you can fill in the modifiers for each ability, abilities are divided according to the sections in v3. Only the current set of values is entered in the database, a recalculation procedure is needed to recalculate all the CRs in the database.
- An admin screen where the stats for all the monsters can be filled in. All entries are added in a database.
-A frontend screen that shows the individual monsters with stats and calculated CR.
- A frontend screen that shows all the monsters with calculated CR.

Any suggestions or requests?

 

[ciaran00]

U_K don't let these bastards get to ya. Take your time, mate!

ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cergorach mate!

Gosh, that's what i was afraid of, doing all those calculations by hand is mindnumbing and prone to error.

Its neither the calculations nor the minute possibility of error*, but simply the amount of time invested in what I consider such a mundane task.

*for me.

Is the core of v4 still the same, adding/substracting points for the different qualities of each creature to come to the total CR?

Pretty much, yes. Though there is still the 'Golden Rule'.

I have something in mind, i'll start tomorrow (if work allows).
- An admin screen where you can fill in the modifiers for each ability, abilities are divided according to the sections in v3. Only the current set of values is entered in the database, a recalculation procedure is needed to recalculate all the CRs in the database.
- An admin screen where the stats for all the monsters can be filled in. All entries are added in a database.
-A frontend screen that shows the individual monsters with stats and calculated CR.
- A frontend screen that shows all the monsters with calculated CR.

Any suggestions or requests?

Sounds great.

Here are all the factors from v4:

List of Factors
0. Ability Scores (listed as factor ‘0’ because they do not always apply)
1. Attacks/Damage
2. Character Levels (and Prestige Classes)
3. Deflection
4. Equipment
5. Feats (Bonus)
6. Hit Dice
7. Integrated Spell Levels
8. Movement
9. Natural Armor
10. NPC Class Levels
11. Size
12. Skill Points (Bonus)
13. Special Abilities/Qualities
13.01 Ability Score Loss
13.02 Breath Weapons
13.03 Create Spawn
13.04 Damage Reduction
13.05 Disease
13.06 Energy Drain
13.07 Energy Resistance
13.08 Fast Healing
13.09 Gaze Weapons
13.10 Generic Abilities
13.11 Immunities
13.12 Insight/Luck/Profane/Sacred Bonuses
13.13 Poison
13.14 Ray Attacks
13.15 Regeneration
13.16 Spell-like Abilities
13.17 Spell Resistance
13.18 Summon
13.19 Touch Attacks
13.20 Turn Resistance
13.21 Unusual Abilities
13.22 Vulnerabilities
14. Templates
15. Traits (Type/Subtype/Race)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey ciaran mate!

U_K don't let these bastards get to ya.

Unfortunately these ones are self-imposed; but I never concede defeat so its only a matter of knuckling down.

Take your time, mate!

The major annoyance for me is that this is really eating into time that would be better spent finishing off the Immortals Handbook.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I have a question about CR vs. ECL (in this case, NPC vs. PC) abilities. You have no doubt noticed the 3.5 nymph's "unearthly beauty" ability. Would you rate this differently than a different +4 deflection bonus? Would you rate it differently for a PC? Would the rating change if the character had a higher score in Cha (either by assigning different stats at character design, or with an item/wish/level point/SDA/etc.)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I have a question about CR vs. ECL (in this case, NPC vs. PC) abilities.

Sure, fire away.

You have no doubt noticed the 3.5 nymph's "unearthly beauty" ability. Would you rate this differently than a different +4 deflection bonus?

Do you mean Unearthly Grace?

If so, yes. The CHA bonus also applies to all saving throws.

So +0.4 for deflection; +0.8 for the bonuses to saving throws. Total +1.2.

Would you rate it differently for a PC? Would the rating change if the character had a higher score in Cha (either by assigning different stats at character design, or with an item/wish/level point/SDA/etc.)?

Yes, if its a flexible total I would give a flat +0.5 for deflection and a flat +1 for the saving throw bonuses.

In such cases take the minimum possible modifier and multiply by 5.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Yes, if its a flexible total I would give a flat +0.5 for deflection and a flat +1 for the saving throw bonuses.

In such cases take the minimum possible modifier and multiply by 5.

Does that really work for a system designed to scale to infinity? (You tell me -- the most I've reliably played is 25th level.) Is there a point at which stats are expected to be high enough to make that undervalued?

I understand that a benefit 'payed for' with a stat is less valuable than one that comes without attachments, since the character needs a higher stat than he/she'd usually put in that place. A nymph fighter would put a higher score into Cha than a typical human fighter might, so the nymph has a lower strength -- just because Cha is more useful than normal. If Cha 22+ is normal (for characters who don't have a special need for Cha), though, won't that make the price too low?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Does that really work for a system designed to scale to infinity? (You tell me -- the most I've reliably played is 25th level.) Is there a point at which stats are expected to be high enough to make that undervalued?

The answer to that depends on how the ability scores were gained. Provided all the Ability Score increases are fairly handled I don't see a problem.

If you permit the horror story of epic spells (one example I saw had a 50th-level PC and each of his cohorts with +100 to every ability score!!!), then you are going to have to revise the rating.

I understand that a benefit 'payed for' with a stat is less valuable than one that comes without attachments, since the character needs a higher stat than he/she'd usually put in that place. A nymph fighter would put a higher score into Cha than a typical human fighter might, so the nymph has a lower strength -- just because Cha is more useful than normal. If Cha 22+ is normal (for characters who don't have a special need for Cha), though, won't that make the price too low?

If you are asking could the ability be abused, I think the answer is yes. I remember reading one epic campaign where one of the PCs (legitamately) had Charisma 54 by 24th-level.

However, remember the CR/EL relationship. The higher you ascend the less impact CR has on EL.

So really, as long as the ability score gains are fairly handled you might well be able to gain something of a CR benefit but nothing that will really affect EL to any great degree.

A flat bonus for a special ability/quality that can be increased should only be used as a last resort.

If you were wanting to add Deflection as a feature of a Template then you would pretty much be resigned to creating a flat bonus. For (non-epic) monsters I think that +0.5 would be a fair average, double that for epic monsters or deities.