Revised Ranger: Yup, time for a poll

[Rashak Mani]

Can someone point out where is the revised Ranger please ? Otherwise I cant vote ...

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

RM: It's in Dragon #308 (most of it, anyway). From the Dragon #308 thread:

The ranger Class Philosophy says he is no longer a lightly armored fighter, he is a skill-using hunter.

Notable changes to the ranger:
Skill points changed to 6
Hit die changed to d8
Favored enemy bonus now gives +2
New favored enemy at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 with graduated increases
Wild Empathy ability at level 1 (replaces the skill)
Gain a 2-weapon OR archery feat at levels 2, 6 and 11
Endurance at level 3
Animal Companion at level 4
Woodland stride at level 7
Swift tracker at level 8 (move normal speed while tracking)
Evasion at level 9
Camouflage at level 13 (hide in any terrain even without cover or concealment)
Hide in plain sight at level 17

There also will be some changes to his spell list.
He gains charm animal as a 1st level spell choice, a better barkskin as 2nd, darkvision at 3rd, and animal growth at 4th.
His spell casting levels are unchanged.

 

[Felon]

Specific Roguelike aspects I dislike:
-Evasion (although I wouldn't object to Uncanny Dodge)
-Reduction in Hit Dice
-Maybe HiPS, but I'm withholding judgement until I see the full write-up there

Why is a reduction in Hit Dice roguelike? Since it's a d8, why not say it's more monkish?

So, you're right, there isn't that much that's specifically Roguelike that I directly object to. I'm big enough to acknowledge that I overblew a statement made somewhere else. Leave the skills and camo. That's the short of it.

Cool.

I have seen it mentioned several times in discussions about the 3.5 Ranger on these boards. It was also, IIRC, hinted at in the WotC "3.5 Spotlight" of the new Manyshot feat (something like "Rangers who chose archery as their combat path receive Manyshot even if they don't qualify so long as they are wearing light armor.").

Yeah, that Manyshot presentation is a good point. It would be a shame for them to go the exquisitely route of virtual feats. For one thing, it wouldn't support multi-classing very well, since a guy with several levels of fighter or whatnot may already have gotten Rapid Shot or 2WF. Better to give him a list.

I have. Right here.

Well, if I get the gist of this presentation, instead of making the ranger into a class that co-opts the fighter class features, you'd have him co-opt the barbarian’s? I don’t understand your statement that rage “sounds more like a PrC” ability. Seems like a barbarian is as much of a basic brute as they come (indeed, I’ve known a DM or two who thinks altogether illogical to let anyone pick up a level of barbarian if they didn’t start their career as one).

So, besides posting my own alt.Ranger, listing a dozen examples of historical and fictional personages I think make the Ranger archetype, and pointing out specific abilities that I dislike or would like to see added, what would you have me do?

The historical and fictional references are certainly not the best way to go, as they are all pretty subjective interpretations. As for your ranger variant, I was hoping your personal vision of a ranger would be a class that carves its own niche within a party without an emphasis on siphoning any other class’s abilities. How satisfying can that be?

 

[Kai Lord]

Why is a reduction in Hit Dice roguelike? Since it's a d8, why not say it's more monkish?

Same with Evasion. The funny thing is, with that and the d8, the new Ranger actually has more in common with a Monk than a Rogue (not to belabor the point against Mercule, just making an observation). I wish WOTC would just give us what we want instead of these stupid wildemonkefighterogueninjaedruids.

 

[megamania]

I didn't vote. I want the 5th catagory of- need to try it before judging it. Just only got newest Dragon magazine that speaks of details of new Ranger. Curious. It's distinctive yet recognizable.

 

[doctorjeff98]

What's the cut-off between old and new school gamers?

 

[Steverooo]

My $0.02:

The ranger Class Philosophy says he is no longer a lightly armored fighter, he is a skill-using hunter.

Good. Rangers have always been hunters, and this fits with my Ranger concept.

Notable changes to the ranger: Skill points changed to 6

Good. Rangers have been lacking the points they need to acquire even minimal competence in their "required" skills. This, along with the elimination of Intuit Direction and Animal Empathy, will help.

Hit die changed to d8

This, however, is a mistake... The Ranger class has been TOO WEAK AND FLAVORLESS. In order to fix this, they add an Animal Empathy Special Ability at level one, and then remove TWF and 2 HP? This is backwards thinking! (The class may be stronger at higher levels, but is weakened at first, certainly!)

Favored enemy bonus now gives +2
New favored enemy at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 with graduated increases

::Sigh!:: I have never liked the 3e Favored Enemy, so I am blasé about this one...

Wild Empathy ability at level 1 (replaces the skill)

This is a step back to 2e. I wonder how the ability works? I betcha it's based on CHA! If so, ALL STATS are now important to a Ranger, and there is no longer any "throw-away" stat to sink bad rolls into.

I also wonder if the Druid gets this, and if so, at what level? In 2e, the Ranger got it, and the Druid didn't! (Huh?)

Gain a 2-weapon OR archery feat at levels 2, 6 and 11

Real, or Virtual? In any case, eliminating the "other" paths (such as Mounted, etc.) is still a mistake!

(Again, I favor giving every class "Bonus Professional Feats" at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, from a selected list of PHB Feats, just like the Wizard gets, now. I also favor ALL classes getting a Class-Specific Bonus Feat at each level, much like the 3e Druid/Monk... but that's just me... I think more tiny abilities like Woodland Stride would make classes more interesting, and give reasons to stay single-classed, than the current classes do, with multiple levels of "You get more HPs, Skill Points, and maybe a spell". YMMV.)

Endurance at level 3

Interesting... As a Virtual Feat, or a real one? If real, then this also fits with my conception of Rangers.

Animal Companion at level 4

Unless they have changed something, this IS NOT A Ranger-CLASS ABILITY! It is a DRUID Class Ability! Rangers have to cast Animal Friendship to get one, and (again), unless something was changed, they may not be able to (at all, or until 7th level).

Woodland stride at level 7

The ability is fine (in fact, I gave it to my Alt.Ranger), but the level seems late, to me. I think this would be more useful to Rangers at lower levels than seventh...

Swift tracker at level 8 (move normal speed while tracking)

Nice, but also a bit late, IMHO.

Evasion at level 9

Huh? Did they revamp the Reflex saves? If not, then this isn't as much use to a Ranger as a Rogue. His good saves are Fortitude, not Reflex! No, Uncanny Dodge (of great value to Scouts and Skirmishers), at level one, is a better choice.

Camouflage at level 13 (hide in any terrain even without cover or concealment)
Hide in plain sight at level 17

No real problems, here, but I wonder if the Rogue gets'em, and if so, at what level? Camouflage is a bad name, though... Camo has been part of Hide since 1e, and I have always assumed that Rangers/Rogues took full advantage of it. Seems now, Rangers will hafta wait until 13th level to do this! Grrr! I see that as "sounding" like a weakness, although, in truth, it is actually adding a new ability... Needs a better name...

There also will be some changes to his spell list.
He gains charm animal as a 1st level spell choice, a better barkskin as 2nd, darkvision at 3rd, and animal growth at 4th.
His spell casting levels are unchanged.

That's it? Well, at least they finally gave him the Barkskin spell from the Plant Domain... I guess that's something.

For anyone who gives a rat, here's my Ranger archetype:

Animal Empathizers,
Climbers,
Fighting Prowess,
Guides,
Hardy,
Healers,
Herbalists,
Hunters (Favored Enemies),
Information Gatherers (Scouts/Spies),
Knowledgable (all types),
Perceptive (to the point of being Mind-Readers? Hence the 1e powers of Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, ESP, and Telepathy, and the 3e use of Divinations and the Alarm spell),
Spellcasters,
Stealthy,
Survivalists,
Swift,
Trackers,
Trapwise,
Travellers,
Two-Weapon Fighter (for backwards compatibility, ONLY! This is not a class feature!)

From the outtakes quotes above, it appears that he is only an Animal Empathizer with Fighting Prowess who is a Hardy Hunter with some Knowledge of Nature (only), who can cast a few spells and can be Stealthy, and can develop TWF, if he chooses.

He is not particularly good at climbing, guiding, healing, herbalism, hunting anything but his favored enemies, information gathering, knowledge of anything but nature, has no special powers of perception (doesn't even get Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, ESP, Telepathy, etc., on his spell list), doesn't get spells involving the previous, many Animal/Plant ones, those involving movement and travel, many healing, and spells involving hunting, guiding, stealth, etc., such as Find the Path. The only stealth abilities he gets are high level. He gets nothing to help him survive or be swift, or even track, until Fast-Tracking at higher levels. He is not Trapwise, even with a high Search skill, as he cannot even recognize DC 20+ traps. He gets nothing to help him travel, save access to Climb, Jump, Ride, and Swim.

Also, as far as I know, the Ranger still doesn't have the Balance skill to avoid those DC 15 checks to walk across ice, or avoid falling off cliffs or out of trees. Nor the Endure Elements spell to help him stand up to the weather as well as a Cleric or Paladin. Many other such problems (as I see them) have not been fixed.

All in all, the 3.5e Ranger is worse than the 3.0 one at lower levels (as far as I can see), about even at 8th - 15th level or so, and perhaps a tad better at high levels (if he survives). As a fix, I see it as a wash...

I'm 1e old-school, and I voted "No".

[EDIT: Typos]

 

[boschdevil]

What's the cut-off between old and new school gamers?

With respect to this poll, it would be all that played 1st edition and 2nd edition are old school gamers and those who started with 3rd edition are new school gamers.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I voted no because the 3r ranger, while clearly superior to the 3e version, falls well short of the AD&D versions. Hence, my variant:

Link

 

[Apok]

Well, the 3e Ranger is definitely the best "official" incarnation I've seen yet. It's not as flexible as the Mercenary Ranger but it's a step in the right direction (IMO) ability-wise.

I wonder if they dropped the favored enemy restriction regarding your own race. That always seemed like a rather stupid and arbitrary rule and even if it doesn't get dropped I'll be house-ruling it.