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D&D 5E Revising Classic Settings


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My father sometimes sees it, but I feel unconfortable when I think about the horrible things happening in the real world, but that serie shouldn't be cancelled. I trust nobody who tries fixing everything with new rules, orders or banning because he doesn't hope free citizen to do the right actions when you explain the reasons.

Some animes not only show slavery but even some main character sidekics are former slaves themself, even children.

There was a episode of the legendary journeys of Hercules about slavery with Lucy Liu.

Should I ask to cancel movies about pirates? My land was victim of pirates and slaver trafickers. Some weeks ago I read about fishers in Almeria, Sourth-East Spanish coast, almost catched by Frenchs...to be sold as slaves in the north of Morocco. The coasts of my land being attacked by Otoman pirates to catch slaves. But Hollywood movies don't tell about pirates as slavery traffickers.
What the heck are you going on about, bro?
Nobody is cancelling anything. Or saying that you can’t ever have pirates or slaves again. No one’s gonna to take your rapey TV shows away from you.

But if Wizards is going to make a campaign setting designed to appeal to the largest possible audience they’re probably not going to include sexual assault or lottsa slavery or historically accurate pirates. Because that stuff is upsetting to some people. And it’s not very PG-13.

They only plan to publish two more classic campaigns. And if their choices are a campaign that includes content that makes heavy and regular use of an adult subject that makes a biggly number of people squirm or one that doesn’t make people squirm, then why the flip would they choose the first one?

That’s not cancelling.
That’s capitalism.
 



A family-friendly TV-Show can show slavery as something to be reported. Are we going to cancel old movies of sword and sandal because there are slaves?


There is a Western isekai saga, The Guardians of the Flame, about a group of students from the real life playing a RPG and they travel to a fantasy world, and one of the main threads is the defense of the freedome against the slavery.

 
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Ban Kender!!! I hate retcons and reboots, might make an exception for Kender.
In all seriousness, if I was rebooting Dragonlance I'd retcon kender to be eternal-child trickster fey, a bit in the Peter Pan mold.

And then all the Dragonlance grognards would rise up in their thousands to murder me, which is why any reboot should be done by someone with a deep and abiding love for the setting, rather than someone like me who's reasonably familiar with it but not particularly emotionally attached.
 

In all seriousness, if I was rebooting Dragonlance I'd retcon kender to be eternal-child trickster fey, a bit in the Peter Pan mold.

And then all the Dragonlance grognards would rise up in their thousands to murder me....
Are you sure? I don't know anyone who thought they were such a brilliant idea. Me, I'd be quite happy if the Cataclysm were retconned as the gods' combined attempt to rid Krynn of every last kender.
 



A family-friendly TV-Show can show slavery as something to be reported. Are we going to cancel old movies of sword and sandal because there are slaves?

To summarize. Your argument is that it's okay to have slavery now because some show from twenty-five years ago had slavery and no one got upset.
That it's okay to make African Americans uncomfortable now because of a show made back in the day, when having opening gay characters on TV was still iffy so they based the entire spin-off around queerbaiting.
There is a Western isekai saga, The Guardians of the Flame, about a group of students from the real life playing a RPG and they travel to a fantasy world, and one of the main threads is the defense of the freedome against the slavery.

And big helping of rape as well, judging by reviews.

Whatever you enjoy reading, bro. That's dandy. Not gonna judge. But repeating, Wizards has two campaigns left. Two. And ten or eleven campaign worlds to choose from.
Which would you have them make? The campaigns that would upset many fans and make people uncomfortable. Or the campaigns that wouldn't run against the community they're trying to grow and the audience they want to support.

Do you want Wizards to make players feel uncomfortable or welcome?
 

Agreed. Plus if the climate of the land is [ insert climate type] the people of the land will be predominantly [ insert skin colour type].
Why?
That's how it is on Earth. Don't mean it's how it is on Krynn. Specially when humans only existed for 9350 years, and have been moving about the continent most of that time.
 

Scribe

Hero
Wizards has two campaigns left. Two. And ten or eleven campaign worlds to choose from.
Which would you have them make?
If it was me? Planescape and Dark Sun.

If it's what I think they would do? Planescape and Dragonlance.

Planescape is your 'everything' world. Any lineage, any class, any plane, and plot. Planescape could do anything.

DL, should be a more conservative take on the Fantasy setting imo, distinct from FR.
 

I am afraid you don't understand me. It is ok to talk about slavery in the fiction to say it is wrong. Do you think that Simpsons episode where Lisas was dreaming to be Moses in the ancient Egypt and the classroom children to be slaves?

f7cfdd2f-bc22-463a-84be-5c20c41741e9.jpg


9e4a8307-491e-4bf6-9866-445d63bd75a7.jpg


Maybe you are right and we should cancel "A Family Guy" but lot of people can feel offended.

maxresdefault.jpg


Anakin Skywalker and his mother were slaves in "the Phanton Menace", and the princess Leia was Jabba the Hutt's slave, wearing a cute bikini, for a little time when rescued Han Solo in "the Return of Jedi".

The teleseris "The Maid's Tale" is about sexual slavery, and I feel very unconfortable when I remember that is happening in the real life, when Christians girls are kidnnaped in Pakistan or Egipt for forced marriages.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
To summarize. Your argument is that it's okay to have slavery now because some show from twenty-five years ago had slavery and no one got upset.
That it's okay to make African Americans uncomfortable now because of a show made back in the day, when having opening gay characters on TV was still iffy so they based the entire spin-off around queerbaiting.

And big helping of rape as well, judging by reviews.

Whatever you enjoy reading, bro. That's dandy. Not gonna judge. But repeating, Wizards has two campaigns left. Two. And ten or eleven campaign worlds to choose from.
Which would you have them make? The campaigns that would upset many fans and make people uncomfortable. Or the campaigns that wouldn't run against the community they're trying to grow and the audience they want to support.

Do you want Wizards to make players feel uncomfortable or welcome?
Thank you for demonstrating what I meant when I said "...WotC will have to grow asbestos armor..."
 

I am afraid you don't understand me. It is ok to talk about slavery in the fiction to say it is wrong. Do you think that Simpsons episode where Lisas was dreaming to be Moses in the ancient Egypt and the classroom children to be slaves?
An episode from 1999?
Have you watched any TV from this century?

Maybe you are right and we should cancel "A Family Guy" but lot of people can feel offended.

maxresdefault.jpg
Man, I haven't seen anyone who loves saying "cancelled" so much that wasn't a Fox News host.

And Family Guy loves offending people. That's what it do. Wizards doesn't want to offend. It's a family game that's owned by Hasbro. That's like expecting Potatohead to come with a slave collar accessory. Escaped Slave Barbie.

Anakin Skywalker and his mother were slaves in "the Phanton Menace", and the princess Leia was Jabba the Hutt's slave, wearing a cute bikini, for a little time when rescued Han Solo in "the Return of Jedi".

The teleseris "The Maid's Tale" is about sexual slavery, and I feel very unconfortable when I remember that is happening in the real life, when Christians girls are kidnnaped in Pakistan or Egipt for forced marriages.

Jesus Christ bro, could you be trying any harder to ask to play a slave? You really want slavery in your DnD.

Okay. Fine. There should be movies that include slavery. It's a thing in the real world. Slaves pick your coffee and chocolate and make your clothes
But the question I asked was not "should slavery never ever be portrayed in any media?" That wasn't the flipping question. That's a strawman you keep waving about
What I asked was "Which would you have them make? The campaigns that would upset many fans and make people uncomfortable? Or the campaigns that wouldn't run against the community they're trying to grow and the audience they want to support?"

Do YOU want people to be uncomfortable playing DnD? Yes or no.

That's the dang point. Slavery shouldn't be escapist for done for fun. You shouldn't pretend to be a slave for your own amusement. It doesn't NEED to exist in our DnD and our fantasy fiction. It's something we play so we don't HAVE to think about all the horrible stuff going on in the world. Why do we need to be reminded of slavery and rape and hate crimes in our free time? Not when we can just as easily avoid it
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
An episode from 1999?
Have you watched any TV from this century?


Man, I haven't seen anyone who loves saying "cancelled" so much that wasn't a Fox News host.

And Family Guy loves offending people. That's what it do. Wizards doesn't want to offend. It's a family game that's owned by Hasbro. That's like expecting Potatohead to come with a slave collar accessory. Escaped Slave Barbie.



Jesus Christ bro, could you be trying any harder to ask to play a slave? You really want slavery in your DnD.

Okay. Fine. There should be movies that include slavery. It's a thing in the real world. Slaves pick your coffee and chocolate and make your clothes
But the question I asked was not "should slavery never ever be portrayed in any media?" That wasn't the flipping question. That's a strawman you keep waving about
What I asked was "Which would you have them make? The campaigns that would upset many fans and make people uncomfortable? Or the campaigns that wouldn't run against the community they're trying to grow and the audience they want to support?"

Do YOU want people to be uncomfortable playing DnD? Yes or no.

That's the dang point. Slavery shouldn't be escapist for done for fun. You shouldn't pretend to be a slave for your own amusement. It doesn't NEED to exist in our DnD and our fantasy fiction. It's something we play so we don't HAVE to think about all the horrible stuff going on in the world. Why do we need to be reminded of slavery and rape and hate crimes in our free time? Not when we can just as easily avoid it

So I do think there is a more nuanced POV on this, somewhere in-between your point and @LuisCarlos17f (and boy his arguments just make me disagree with him more).

Here is a piece of art for the Drow in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, released in 2018.

1617386990569.png


I don't love everything about the depiction of Drow in that book, and there is some I do not like, however I think it did make a solid effort at trying to make the Drow more nuanced than they have been in the past. Largely, that the Lolth-worshipping side of the culture is extremely toxic, made much worse by the insidious nature of the god they worship. But that other gods provide alternative avenues for the Drow, some good (Elistraee) and others more neutral. And of course, it addresses how the "bad drow" subsist on slavery, but that this doesn't define the entirety of their race, and that they don't rely on any specific race for forced labor.

At the time, I don't know how many people were offended by this depiction of slavery, or even this depiction of Drow. I think you can do something similar with that of Dark Sun, that yes slavery exists, but that it is in fact very very bad. You can hire sensitivity consultants, and writers of various backgrounds, to help publish material that can address these real-world issues in a fantasy context without upsetting people.

Anyway, my point is that most people of various backgrounds don't like to just scrub fictional material of references to toxic material. What people do want is it written in a framework that takes in consideration various people viewpoints and backgrounds. Material written solely by a "white western male" voice has been the norm, and folks just want material provided by different voices. They don't want all negative associations removed; people know what is wrong and what is right.
 

dave2008

Legend
They only plan to publish two more classic campaigns.
That is not correct. They are actively working on two classic settings. However, the said they would like to get to all of them. Now, I find it highly unlikely they will get to all of them, but I am optimistic that they will not stop at the two the currently have in the pipeline.
 

dave2008

Legend
Agreed. Plus if the climate of the land is [ insert climate type] the people of the land will be predominantly [ insert skin colour type].
Well that doesn't really need to hold true for a fantasy world, like at all. Heck it doesn't even need to apply to another habitable planet in our RL galaxy. Not all stars emit the same radiation and different planets could, and likely have, developed different methods of counteracting it.
 

I am afraid you don't understand me. It is ok to talk about slavery in the fiction to say it is wrong. Do you think that Simpsons episode where Lisas was dreaming to be Moses in the ancient Egypt and the classroom children to be slaves?

Maybe you are right and we should cancel "A Family Guy" but lot of people can feel offended.

Anakin Skywalker and his mother were slaves in "the Phanton Menace", and the princess Leia was Jabba the Hutt's slave, wearing a cute bikini, for a little time when rescued Han Solo in "the Return of Jedi".

The teleseris "The Maid's Tale" is about sexual slavery, and I feel very unconfortable when I remember that is happening in the real life, when Christians girls are kidnnaped in Pakistan or Egipt for forced marriages.
So I do think there is a more nuanced POV on this, somewhere in-between your point and @LuisCarlos17f (and boy his arguments just make me disagree with him more).

Here is a piece of art for the Drow in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, released in 2018.

View attachment 135064

I don't love everything about the depiction of Drow in that book, and there is some I do not like, however I think it did make a solid effort at trying to make the Drow more nuanced than they have been in the past. Largely, that the Lolth-worshipping side of the culture is extremely toxic, made much worse by the insidious nature of the god they worship. But that other gods provide alternative avenues for the Drow, some good (Elistraee) and others more neutral. And of course, it addresses how the "bad drow" subsist on slavery, but that this doesn't define the entirety of their race, and that they don't rely on any specific race for forced labor.

At the time, I don't know how many people were offended by this depiction of slavery, or even this depiction of Drow. I think you can do something similar with that of Dark Sun, that yes slavery exists, but that it is in fact very very bad. You can hire sensitivity consultants, and writers of various backgrounds, to help publish material that can address these real-world issues in a fantasy context without upsetting people.

Anyway, my point is that most people of various backgrounds don't like to just scrub fictional material of references to toxic material. What people do want is it written in a framework that takes in consideration various people viewpoints and backgrounds. Material written solely by a "white western male" voice has been the norm, and folks just want material provided by different voices. They don't want all negative associations removed; people know what is wrong and what is right.

How do we frame this in such a way that a white, western male might have the same visceral and instinctive revulsion to a dark campaign element like chattel slavery that, while realistic, can be offputting and denigrating to players? This is difficult to do, considering the protective ruling class bubble that colonialism, historical revisionism, etc. provide, but I'll give it a shot:

1) A nation has suffered a protracted, seemingly endless war. Returning soldiers, mostly men, have been largely abandoned by the crown to live in squalor and mental decay . The terrors and specters of war have become so collectively profound that they've manifested as actual monsters, stalking the alleys and gulches of the capital. Suicide is so prevalent among returning soldiers that a new demigod of death has arisen to embody it.

2) A nation of minotaurs keeps white human males (the paler the better) as sexual chattel, raising and breeding them over generations to rape. They're like pets, to be displayed wherever the proud minotaurs travel in their mercenary companies.

3) All younger brothers of the first born male are made into eunuchs to insure an uncomplicated line of patrilineal heritage. This is common practice.

4) When they come of age, men are judged by the dominant religion to be either worthy of conjugal relations with women or made into a second class of males. They cannot marry, the are barred from types of military service and women who respect their own social status avoid being in their presence.

Fun, no?/s

If you add any, or a few, of these elements to a game I can assure you your players will give you long, sideways glances and mutter "what the fu..." under their breath. Even if you added these scenarios with the intent of addressing them as the inhumane abuses they are - as "maturely as possible" - many players would simply not want to go along for the ride. And they'd be right to do so.

I'm more open to a case being made for non-chattel slavery (ie. prisoners of war, convicts, interlopers) like the Drow art suggests, but that would have to be outlined by a DM with zen like sensitivity.
 
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