Revisionist game publishing

[catsclaw227]

I agree. There is also a feat that allows you to change your race, and being a feat, you can retrain it later.

In all seriousness, I really did miss that one. Which feat lets you change your race? If that's true, that is lame and I would personally houserule it out.
Are you talking about the sub-race feats in for FR book, like Wild Elf Luck and Wood Elf Agility, where you can only have one or the other?

I would DM these as you get the skill of a wood elf or wild elf, not that your race changes, but then the one-or-the-other thing doesn't work out right.

Either way, a simple house rule clarification would do. I would say that once you choose one of these feats, you cannot choose the other for the lifetime of the PC, you can retrain in and out of your original choice, but once you pick "wood elf" that is your subrace.

 

[ExploderWizard]

In all seriousness, I really did miss that one. Which feat lets you change your race? If that's true, that is lame and I would personally houserule it out.
Are you talking about the sub-race feats in for FR book, like Wild Elf Luck and Wood Elf Agility, where you can only have one or the other?

Nope. Dragon 382-The Dusk Elf. A regular elf can become one with a feat and switch back if they feel like it.

 

[Echohawk]

Nope. Dragon 382-The Dusk Elf. A regular elf can become one with a feat and switch back if they feel like it.

I think this is probably a slightly unfair characterization of how dusk elves work.

Dusk elves are represented mechanically by taking the Dusk Elf Stealth feat. Otherwise, dusk elves are mechanically identical to normal elves.

Note my emphasis on the word mechanically.

An elf taking the Dusk Elf Stealth feat does not suddenly gain the pale complexion and blue/violet eyes that separate dusk elves from ordinary elves. Similarly, a dusk elf character who retrains the the "Dusk Elf Stealth" feat does not suddenly lose those physical characteristics. They would lose the mechanical benefit of the feat (which is actually only a benefit to allies in any case), but they would still be a dusk elf.

The dusk elf feats just provide a simple way of emphasizing aspects of that sub-race in game mechanics terms. They do not cause a character to change race.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The dusk elf feats just provide a simple way of emphasizing aspects of that sub-race in game mechanics terms. They do not cause a character to change race.

How so? The race itself is represented as a feat. Other feats have the basic dusk elf feat as a prerequisite. Since PC's and NPC's use different rules, there can ONLY be PC dusk elves because NPC's do not get feats and cannot choose to spend one on being what they were born.

What happens if the PC takes the feat at a higher level?

 

[Echohawk]

How so? The race itself is represented as a feat.

No it isn't. The race is represented mechanically by a feat (or rather a chain of feats). But the race itself is also represented by the physical characteristics of dusk elves, and a whole bunch of other background fluff described in the article.

What happens if the PC takes the feat at a higher level?

A PC taking the Dusk Elf Stealth feat at any level simply gains the mechanical benefit of that feat, which is: "All allies within 6 squares of you that do not have this feat gain a +1 racial bonus to Stealth checks." There is nothing whatsoever in the feat description to indicate that an elven PC taking that feat suddenly changes race. The feat does not say "Gain the physical characteristics of dusk elves," which it would need to in order for it to be a feat which changes the PC's race.

It is clearly the intention of the article to provide mechanical options which are thematically suited to a dusk elf PC, but that the feat is not actually restricted to dusk elves. It can be taken by any elf, so an ordinary elf taking it would gain the same benefits as a dusk elf, but won't magically change race. Similarly, a dusk elf that does not take that feat doesn't magically cease being a dusk elf, they are just a dusk elf without the mechanical benefits of that feat.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How so? The race itself is represented as a feat. Other feats have the basic dusk elf feat as a prerequisite. Since PC's and NPC's use different rules, there can ONLY be PC dusk elves because NPC's do not get feats and cannot choose to spend one on being what they were born.

What happens if the PC takes the feat at a higher level?

That's not how it works. For a PC to signify being a dusk elf, he takes the feat. (That doesn't mean he couldn't be one without, but there would be no mechanical things notable).

NPCs don't have feats but that doesn't mean they can't be Dusk Elves. It just means they do it differently. (PRobably by giving them thematically appropriate powers and abilities and then call them Dusk Elf Mangler or whatever ).

The rules present _one_ way to do something. They do not necessarily present the only way.

 

[MrMyth]

How so? The race itself is represented as a feat. Other feats have the basic dusk elf feat as a prerequisite. Since PC's and NPC's use different rules, there can ONLY be PC dusk elves because NPC's do not get feats and cannot choose to spend one on being what they were born.

Since PCs and NPCs use different rules, there can totally be NPC dusk elves because NPCs don't need feats to mechanically represent their origin. Just like if I really want an NPC to use a Spiked Chain, I can just declare it so, rather than needing them to take a feat for proficiency! Seriously, you can't use "NPCs and PCs use different rules" as an excuse to limit how NPCs can be designed.

What happens if the PC takes the feat at a higher level?

1) The player takes the feat, gaining some mechanical benefits to represent a character that, from the start, they had played as a Dusk Elf. And no one even notices the difference.

2) The player realizes that the Dusk Elf concept really fits his character, and takes the feat, and says, "Hey guys, my character has actually always been a Dusk Elf, and he just never really talked about it until now." And everyone acknowledges it and moves on.

3) The player decides that a Dusk Elf would make a really cool character, and takes the feat for their character (currently a Wood Elf). He asks is everyone will pretend nothing weird happened in game, and assume the character has always been like that, for the sake of letting him continue to enjoy his character. The DM works out any minor inconsistencies this might cause in the plot, and everyone moves on.

4) The player things the feat will give him a powerful mechanicaly benefit, and so takes it purely for optimization purposes. The rest of the table never even realizes the character has the feat. If it does get noticed and people think it a weird feat for him based on the character's behavior or background, he comes up with some random explanation for it. And everyone moves on.

 

[Scribble]

How so? The race itself is represented as a feat. Other feats have the basic dusk elf feat as a prerequisite. Since PC's and NPC's use different rules, there can ONLY be PC dusk elves because NPC's do not get feats and cannot choose to spend one on being what they were born.

What happens if the PC takes the feat at a higher level?

I think again you're arguing something from a standpoint the game doesn't take.

Your argument seems to imply with the feat you ARE that race, without it you aren't... Indicating that the rules inform the concept. Correct?

The game doesn't take this stance, and neither do many of the players.

The article indicates dusk elves are represented mechanically by these feats sure, but that's where it stops. What the feats "mean" in the context of the imaginary world is entirely up to the players at the table using them.

Do they mean if you have them you ARE a dusk elf? Sure they can mean that. Would it be silly if they can be retrained? Maybe, that's up to the players.

They can also mean that the character has just learned abilities associated with dusk elves. Maybe flavor wise he was trained in the art by dusk elves... Who knows that's up to the players.

They can also be completely disassociated with the dusk elf flavor and be used to gain certain benefits. Up to the player.

I think really what 4e strives to do (and does pretty well for the most part) is remove the idea of flavor and rules needing to be directly tied together. It gives you balanced rules and then lets you decide how best they fit into your imaginary world.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Since PCs and NPCs use different rules, there can totally be NPC dusk elves because NPCs don't need feats to mechanically represent their origin. Just like if I really want an NPC to use a Spiked Chain, I can just declare it so, rather than needing them to take a feat for proficiency! Seriously, you can't use "NPCs and PCs use different rules" as an excuse to limit how NPCs can be designed.

You could but it would make about as much sense as creating a race as a feat in the first place.

1) The player takes the feat, gaining some mechanical benefits to represent a character that, from the start, they had played as a Dusk Elf. And no one even notices the difference.

2) The player realizes that the Dusk Elf concept really fits his character, and takes the feat, and says, "Hey guys, my character has actually always been a Dusk Elf, and he just never really talked about it until now." And everyone acknowledges it and moves on.

3) The player decides that a Dusk Elf would make a really cool character, and takes the feat for their character (currently a Wood Elf). He asks is everyone will pretend nothing weird happened in game, and assume the character has always been like that, for the sake of letting him continue to enjoy his character. The DM works out any minor inconsistencies this might cause in the plot, and everyone moves on.

4) The player things the feat will give him a powerful mechanicaly benefit, and so takes it purely for optimization purposes. The rest of the table never even realizes the character has the feat. If it does get noticed and people think it a weird feat for him based on the character's behavior or background, he comes up with some random explanation for it. And everyone moves on.

With all these options the player realizes that all characters in the game world are mutable, customizable toons and moves on.

If the feat represented a sect, such as a secret ninja clan it would make a lot more sense. The flavor of the article goes out of its way to portray dusk elves as separate race with distinguishing characteristics and then proceeds to package that into mutable form as a feat.

If I decide to train out the feat later do I get to keep my dusky complexion?

Why was the cancel christmas option edited out? It was kind of funny.

 

[catsclaw227]

With all these options the player realizes that all characters in the game world are mutable, customizable toons and moves on.

I am pretty sure he was listing example explanations, not different options. I could be wrong though.