[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[Luddite]

Just that alot more people enjoy playing Hack 'n Slash type games.

IME, this is not true, except perhaps in the teenage crowd. IRL (and when running online games) with random assortments of players, it was frequently the case that only 1 or 2 people I would have to screen out because they were just about hacking.

Ahh the vageries of the English Language . To Clarify, many people enjoy a Hack and Slash game. Some of these people like more Narraitive games as well. This isn't to say that they perfer Hank and Slash over Narriative, but they can enjoy a Hack and Slash. Also it isn't to imply that they only wanted to Hack.

I enjoyed playing Diablo, I also enjoyed playing PLanescape:Torments. I enjoyed playing a long-term Ars Magica Saga. I have enjoyed playing Temple of Elemental Evil. I have enjoyed playing one shots of Slaughter the Orc with Pies!

-The Luddite

 

[Luddite]

There's a logic flaw here that I tried to point out in my last post. D&D is not equal to hack and slash. I'd agree with everything in your paragraph quoted above except the last sentence, which I'd revise to "Just that a lot more people enjoy playing D&D." I've actually seen very few games, at least since junior high, of D&D played as hack n slash.

I would agree. DnD != Hack and Slash.

My point, however obtuse it may of been presented, is that a Hack n' Slash is still a valid and popular style of play. I would also point out, Hank 'n Slash != Monty Haul or Powergaming. Hack 'n Slash means focusing on the Combat and such actions more then the story. As I responded to Psion, Just because someone enjoys a good game of dungeon mopping, does not mean the same person does not enjoy a more Narative/Story style of gaming.

So my thoery is that if you take out the "cross-over" of those that like mutiple styles of play, you will find more people in the Hack 'n Slash Only catagory then the Story/Narative Only Catagoty.

I just realized that the Logic fault is the following :

- Many People like DnD
- Many People like Hack 'n Slash
-> Therefor DnD is Hack 'n Slash

So I still stand by my last statment as valid, since I did not imply that DnD = Hack 'n Slash.

But then again, I may be using a lot more liberial definiation of Hack 'n Slash, then others are persuming.

-The Luddite

 

[Xeriar]

It isn't a matter of a person with Str 1 outjumping a Str 21 person; most people take 10 on ordinary, mundane skill roll...like jumping a small fence or over a puddle. I generally know how far I can jump, and don't bother trying to jump things that I know I usually I won't make. The interesting facet of d20 is the randomness in the Jump...occasionally the character with a 20 Str might fail, or the Str 1 character succeed (although if you're playing a 1 Str character, you have bigger problems than making the jump).

That's fine, but it should not be 8%.

What is this vast dichotomy? You claim this to be true, yet provide absolutely no evidence. A 1st level Barbarian with a +5 Fortitude fails his save against a DC 15 poison half the time; a 15th level Barbarian with a +20 Fortitude save fails his save against a DC 30 poison half the time. Although I picked these numbers for simplicity's sake, these numbers aren't unusual at the given levels.

At low levels, randomness takes over. At high levels, bonuses take over.

You can deny this all you want, but how many DC 30 poisons are there in the DMG?

An untrained person with a bow can hit a moving target at 200 yards 5% of the time in d20, even in high winds, and may have a similar chance of shooting the exact same target at 30 feet.

Whereas a highly trained person may have a 95% chance of hitting said target at 200 yards... and the same chance of hitting that target at 30.

Why would it matter if spellcasting, saving throws, and BA were all in the same system as skills? Is that important to you? Skills are generally less important than base attack, saves, or spellcasting ability, and don't relate to most combat activities (with the exception of Tumble...don't get me started about that). Although you could

Only if you run a combat based game.

I challenge you to find a system better or more fun than d20...heck, let the fans decide...oh wait, they have.

There are a number of fun ways to respond to this line of thinking, but I'll just let that drop.

I agree that the system is very important and can define the world. Obviously, a game with hit points and levels, legendary heroes can do mighty, powerful things that ordinary men couldn't hope to accomplish, like routing an army singlehandedly...in a game like GURPS, such feats wouldn't even be tried, no matter how skilled the fighter.

My main issue with d20 is that it is really three games (four if you count epic) at low, middle and high levels.

This gets irritating if you want armies to have a point in the world.

Although honesty, if you don't believe system matters, d20 makes more sense than any other system because of the popularity and availability of supplements and information.

You can make the same arguement for Storyteller - it's sold almost everywhere D&D is and someplaces where it isn't, has 80% of it's popularity and has the most developped setting (and the easiest setting to relate to, since it is Earth after all).

 

[Psion]

At low levels, randomness takes over. At high levels, bonuses take over.

You can deny this all you want, but how many DC 30 poisons are there in the DMG?

Um, please do try to read and take into account what people say. He said "I picked these numbers for simplicity's sake." So your question was already answered.

That said, the question I would pose would be, do you really want a character to have the same chance of making a save against a poison save at high levels that they would at low levels? Low end poisons might do 1d2 Str. High end poisons do like 3d6 con. And ability scores don't change drastically with level. In terms of the impact it has on the character. I really don't fault the scaling of poison saves.

An untrained person with a bow can hit a moving target at 200 yards 5% of the time in d20, even in high winds, and may have a similar chance of shooting the exact same target at 30 feet.

Whereas a highly trained person may have a 95% chance of hitting said target at 200 yards... and the same chance of hitting that target at 30.

This is heroic fantasy. I still fail to see why this is a bad thing.

If you want to play an infantry simulation game instead of a heroic fantasy game, try Harnmaster.

My main issue with d20 is that it is really three games (four if you count epic) at low, middle and high levels.

I am not sure I would want to play a game in which playing a neophyte is no different than playing a legendary hero. But it maintains the challenge; that's what's important.

 

[Ranger REG]

I would agree. DnD != Hack and Slash.

I just realized that the Logic fault is the following :

- Many People like DnD
- Many People like Hack 'n Slash
-> Therefor DnD is Hack 'n Slash

So I still stand by my last statment as valid, since I did not imply that DnD = Hack 'n Slash.

But then again, I may be using a lot more liberial definiation of Hack 'n Slash, then others are persuming.

Well, D&D is hack 'n slash but it is not limited to that style of gameplay. As I said before, I was able to run a Vampire game that was pure blood frenzy set during the Rodney King Riot.

As I also said before, other than alignment or allegiance, you can roleplay in D&D without having something like the "Road" rules in WoD products (a point-based system that keeps track of your devotion/deviation to your code of conduct or principle). Then again, if you want, create such a rule.

 

[Xeriar]

Um, please do try to read and take into account what people say. He said "I picked these numbers for simplicity's sake." So your question was already answered.

No, he didn't, he picked mathematically equivelant situations.

Anyway, I'm just goign to drop this.

 

[Storm Gorm]

I guess this whole discussion is about AND boils down to the necessity of posessing perspective of roleplaying (specifically over the game mechanics) to run a good and sophisticated game. If one posesses the Ultimate Wisdom i cannot resist flattering Xeriar of displaying (i caught myself nodding violently, reading his latest posts), one can see the flaws, mend them entirely (meaning remaking the rules) if one have the resources and initiative, and prevent them of disrupting the game (not subscribing to the litterature as The Grand Authority). If you can do that, then you will have much more pleasure playing ANY rpg, and you can make of a spesific game anything beyond the obvious alternatives in these (e.g. taking DnD a step to the side from hacking and chopping)

Knowledge is, again, the victorious principle. The more knowledgable the roleplayer is, the better he will roleplay, simple as that.

I guess starting this thread was, for me, sort of a quest, in search of the insights i could not find when it comes to general principles of rpg. Reading the rulebook of FUDGE, supplemented by following the sometimes a bit too sporadic argument going on here, has made me realize things about rpg that i before was angst-awakeningly mistaken about.

At this exact moment (and let me hope it will last, or i will come back here and pick fights) i am gloriously exhilarated over the whole of the scene of rpgs. I feel like an old man, finally at peace, after a life of search for answers.
___________________________
"Aye sense a soul, in search for answers"
4 of 4 on a d4: "Inverse, reverse and perverse"

 

[Desdichado]

If that's so, then I can quite confidently say I've felt Xeriar's pain exactly. In particular the nature of the game as it changes over levels bugs me, and I rarely like to GM outside of my "sweet spot" that only goes up to level 10-11 or so. I've got my gripes with the d20 system, no doubt. However, I've made it work for me, so well in fact that I'd be surprised to see myself running anything else anytime soon.

 

[Gothmog]

I think what some people take exception to with D20 is that they come into it believing what it claims- that it can be ported into any genre, any style of play. But this is simply not true. D20 works well for heroic, cinematic styles of games, but it is terrible for more realistic types of games, or for games that do not include a huge power disparity between inexperienced and experienced characters. I would NEVER try to run a horror game under D20- the mechanics of the system are simply not conducive to the feelings of isolation, helplessness, and terror- the characters are too empowered. I've played D20 now since it came out, and there are a few big faults/holes in the system as I see it.

1. Huge power disparities between low and high level characters. This one is particularly irksome, becasue by the time a character hits 5th level or so, he has nothing to worry about from being mobbed by half a dozen 1st level characters- they are simply so much cannon fodder. Granted, this is a problem to me because I like more realistic style games, and D20 is designed for the cinematic feel. But to me there IS a problem with a single character routing off an entire army- it completely kills my suspension of disbelief. This has been a problem of D&D for me since day 1, but especially in 3E with the power inflation of characters compared to previous editions.

2. Complete randomness dominates at low levels, while randomness plays almost no part at high levels. Rolling a D20 and adding a bonus is simple in play, but produces diametrically opposed results at low and high levels. At low level, everything the character does depends on chance, he's at the mercy of fate. At high levels, the die roll often becomes completely irrelevelent- the bonus is either so high that success is guaranteed, or so low that success is impossible.

3. D&D (and most D20 games to some extent) DO encourage hack-n-slash over roleplaying. I know I'll get in a heap of trouble over this one, but IME its true. Experience in D&D is given for overcoming challenges (aka, killing things), they simply used the "overcoming challenges" lingo in an attempt to take some fire out of the D&D=hack-n-slash crowd's arguements. Experience in most D20 games is NOT given for good roleplaying, and the sad ad hoc experience paragraph in the DMG is basically useless to a less experienced DM wanting to reward XP for things other than killing. Most players, when they hear XP is given for killing critters will simply kill the critters in hopes of garnering more XP. If they are rewarded for this, why shouldn't they really? Its built into the system to reward indiscrimintate violence. And if you are slaughtering someone, its awfully hard to roleplay out an interesting dialogue with them- hence, in many cases, D&D discourages roleplaying. Also, I feel that 3E/3.5 encourages hack-n-slash more than previous editions did- the whole "back to the dungeon" thing. It has been explicitly stated when 3E came out that the classes were balanced against each other for USE IN A DUNGEON. I don't know about everyone else, but every dungeon adventure I have ever played has ALWAYS been about breaking down the doors, killing the monsters,and taking its stuff- and the adventures from WotC bear this out. This can be fun once in a while, but it gets really old, really fast. I have been lucky enough over the last 10 years to play with a group where this isn't the case, but I have also played briefly with 4 other groups over that time- and hack-n-slash is overpoweringly preferred by most of the D&D crowd.

4. This is the biggie for me- D20 games are a nightmare as far as prepping for them. Yes, I know the D20 rules well, and I try to make interesting and unique NPCs. Unfortunately, this takes a huge amount of time to do with D20- there are so many feats, skill points, magic items, and interrelated bonuses to consider that my prep time for statting ALONE has increased 300-500% from my 1E and 2E days. If I'm going to spend that much more time prepping for a game, I'd rather it be thinking of interesting characters, environments, or more complex roleplaying situations than making stats. This has affected my enjoyment of D20 games, to the point where I no longer enjoy prepping for them, and running them seems more like a chore than fun. I'm still interested in the fantasy genre and gaming, but D20 feels like a lead weight hung around my neck- its holding me back, not aiding me.

So my answer to you Storm Gorm, would be that D20 isn't the best system out there. Its good for a heroic, cinematic style game with lots of violence and bigger than life characters, but terrible for other genres or styles. My answer was to stop running D20 for the forseeable future, and go with games that are more suited to my tastes- Savage Worlds, Deadlands, and BRP namely. By the way, if you are wanting a game similar to FUDGE in that it can handle multiple genres seamlessly, give Savage Worlds a try- you won't regret it.

 

[Storm Gorm]

So my answer to you Storm Gorm, would be that D20 isn't the best system out there.

My answer was to stop running D20 for the forseeable future, and go with games that are more suited to my tastes- Savage Worlds, Deadlands, and BRP namely. By the way, if you are wanting a game similar to FUDGE in that it can handle multiple genres seamlessly, give Savage Worlds a try- you won't regret it.

Im falling short of words describing my current enthusiasm.

1. THANK YOU! For the first time in this thread (thatll soon be enough for knitting whole clothes) someone has given me a direct yes to my question, to my suspicion. And it feels good.

2. Im in a real good mood today, so its time for more compliments! Gothmog, mygod, if everyone were as articulated as you just were, then the world would be a better place (sound the clishé alarms), and i hereby apply to be your novice, your padawan (overkillingspree).

3. After i started digging under the surface to explore the more moronic features of DnD, first i found FUDGE all on my own (yes, i almost think i invented it). That was two weeks ago. Further, in this thread somewhere, Merova namedropped "Once Upon A Time", which i searched around about, and yesterday, i bought it, and never have i been more pleasantly surprised. OUAT is great, and ill namedrop it on to anyone who are fond of the story-part of rpgs. (however, OUAT is not strictly a rpg itself, research and blow your mind, trust me, its like heavy drugs in many ways) And now you (Gothmog) recommend even MORE! I am delighted. I am intrigued. What more treasures are there to yet for me to be found? Trust me, Gothmog, i WILL eagerly seek out these systems you speak of.

My light shines twice as bright as before, the question is, will i shine half as long? Is an explosively steep involvement-curve - like the one im rocketeering up right now - healthy, in the long term?

_______________________________________
Mister Zoot Horn Rollo, hit that long lunar note,
and let it float​