D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[Aage]

That struck me as well. For my own education, when did Leader equate to Healer? I don't get this at all.

I thought this had been rather clear, leaders are healers/buffers/support-fighters... sort of like the cleric of 3,5; but hopefully a bit more balanced and more interesting..

 

[hong]

Not if the game is balanced around the assumption that everyone will have a lot of abilities that are middle of the road, and not perfectly min/maxed.

Or if it's designed with the assumption that lots of middle-of-the-road abilities is in fact the most efficient allocation of resources, as opposed to pumping one stat into the stratosphere. This would be ideal.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I just don't see that happening.

Why not? I regularly hit my players with stuff their characters are weak at, to challenge them, just as I give them a few things to absolutely cream by playing to their strengths.

If you're saying that I'm a better DM than anyone at WotC, that's very flattering, but I'm pretty sure it's not true.

And I highly doubt 4e will be Min/max proof.

It doesn't have to be, it just needs to be designed in a way to make it harder to do. Forcing characters to rely on more stats than most classes do now is a good start.

 

[Rechan]

For practical purposes, many feats are class dependent, or at least strongly correlated to class.

Not many. I'd say most are free-range. A fighter with a high dex benefits from Weapon Finesse just like a rogue does. Point blank/precise can benefit everyone, as everyone pretty much can use crossbows (and the mages have to resort to them when they're out of spells); these feats apply to spells, too.

Certainly this applies to things like divine and metamagic feats. And besides: opportunity cost. I can take divine feat X and power up one aspect of my class, or I can take divine feat Y and power up another aspect. I did mention opportunity cost before.

Having to spend feats, just to make use of a class ability that gets little use (turn undead), is bad form. You're spending resources just so that that class ability stuffed in your trunk is less than useless.

I have made a point. Many times. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it isn't my problem.

So unless I agree with you I'm refusing to acknowledge something?

Wow, great tactic there, Hong.

 

[Rechan]

Why not? I regularly hit my players with stuff their characters are weak at, to challenge them, just as I give them a few things to absolutely cream by playing to their strengths.

If you're saying that I'm a better DM than anyone at WotC, that's very flattering, but I'm pretty sure it's not true.

I don't see how that pertains to anything I quoted at all. The passage I quoted and responded to was about "middle of the road vs min/max" abilities.

It doesn't have to be, it just needs to be designed in a way to make it harder to do. Forcing characters to rely on more stats than most classes do now is a good start.

There we'll just have to disagree.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

That's like saying "Yay everybody gets to be the 3e Bard".

Have you ever played a game OTHER than D&D, particularly 3.x D&D? Because lots of games, including almost all point-buy games, tend to penalize players for overspecializing. The PRESENCE of classes that can get by with one stat in 3.x D&D is the aberration - and the source of tons of balance problems.

And I highly doubt 4e will be Min/max proof.

Proof? Probably not. If nothing else, I highly doubt alienating at least 1/5 of the playerbase was a design goal.

Substantially more resistant, with fewer exploits, and exploits that require both more work to achieve and give smaller benefits? d20 Modern is moreso than 3.5, and Star Wars Saga moreso than d20 Modern. There's nothing inherent in the d20 system or WotC as an organization that requires things like the 3.5 druid.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't see how that pertains to anything I quoted at all. The passage I quoted and responded to was about "middle of the road vs min/max" abilities.

There we'll just have to disagree.

I know you feel like you've made your point clearly, but this isn't a conspiracy to pull your leg: You really AREN'T communicating your point of view well.

Other than a pretty intense hatred of a 4E mechanic based on something that appears comparable in 3E, you really haven't articulated an argument on this thread.

 

[Rechan]

Rechan, I don't think Hong is the only one having trouble following your point here. If all the PC classes have to spread out their points across multiple abilities, then the standard encounter in 4e will be based around that idea. The problem with MAD is 3e is that some classes have to do it while some don't, and the difficulty of a CR is based on the non-MAD classes rather than the MAD ones.

Okay, fine. Here is my point: I hate MAD with the intensity of a thousand suns going Nova, and I would rather walk on glass than play a character with MAD. At this juncture I am emotionally invested, rather than intellecutally acknowledging, this stance, and it doesn't matter to me if everyone at the Table, and every Monster in the game, has MAD. Juggling stats at character creation, seeing character abilities just sitting on my character sheet Unused because I didn't put that point there instead of here gives me ulcers.

 

[Kobu]

Whoever said anything about favored classes? He just mentioned that half-elves multiclassed better. Which could mean anything in the still-unknown 4E gaming paradigm.

Which means that other races don't multiclass as well, just like with favored classes. It does not sound promising.

Sorry, I like the fact that there is a difference between a Fighter 1/Wizard 1 and Wizard 1/Fighter 1. Or else it's Diablo I all over again where you end up with multiclassed Fighter/Mages.

I have no idea what you are going on about. Diablo I? What's that got to do with D&D?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

So unless I agree with you I'm refusing to acknowledge something?

Considering that you've yet to address his point in any way, aside from comparing, almost mantra-like, hypothetical 4e characters to 3e challenges, I'd say you refuse to acknowledge, or, heck, even INTERACT WITH, his point.

Play some Star Wars Saga Edition - a game that HEAVILY pushes every heroic character to be at least competent in every stat. Yet, SWSE characters can actually TAKE ON those 3e challenges you insist on comparing 4e characters to, because the system EXPECTS them to have multiple good stats and offers rewards that make them more effective.