D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[Rechan]

Considering that you've yet to address his point in any way, aside from comparing, almost mantra-like, hypothetical 4e characters to 3e challenges, I'd say you refuse to acknowledge, or, heck, even INTERACT WITH, his point.

How the hell am I supposed to compare things in 4e when we can't? All I can use is 3e. What do you want?

Unless I Just say "Hong is right he's so good", what am I supposed to SAY that's acceptable?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Okay, fine. Here is my point: I hate MAD with the intensity of a thousand suns going Nova, and I would rather walk on glass than play a character with MAD. At this juncture I am emotionally invested, rather than intellecutally acknowledging, this stance, and it doesn't matter to me if everyone at the Table, and every Monster in the game, has MAD. Juggling stats at character creation, seeing character abilities just sitting on my character sheet Unused because I didn't put that point there instead of here gives me ulcers.

OK, this I finally grasp. Disagree with, but grasp.

My suspicion is that the default pointbuy (and oh, merciful Principle let point-buy be the default!) will be high enough that you'll never have useless abilities unless you CHOOSE to dump a useful stat. This is the case in SWSE, where a 'typical' character with balanced stats can access all his class features effectively.

Note, however, that SWSE characters have a lot FEWER class features, even as they require more stats; that, which is one of the system's biggest strengths, doesn't seem to be the case about 4e so far. You may actually have something to worry about...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Okay, fine. Here is my point: I hate MAD with the intensity of a thousand suns going Nova, and I would rather walk on glass than play a character with MAD. At this juncture I am emotionally invested, rather than intellecutally acknowledging, this stance, and it doesn't matter to me if everyone at the Table, and every Monster in the game, has MAD.

Yeah, we've got that you don't like it. That's not a point.

Juggling stats at character creation, seeing character abilities just sitting on my character sheet Unused because I didn't put that point there instead of here gives me ulcers.

OK, sans hyperbole, this is a good, specific point. And yes, that does suck. But it does not follow that relying on multiple abilities would mean some abilities would be simply unavailable without the right stat points.

Abilities that happen a number of times a day equal to X + STAT BONUS are already common in 3E. There's no reason to expect that the designers will choose to go with a system that gimps characters with low or average stats. You're freaking out based on an assumption that the designers will take the worst of the 3E designs and make them standard, when you've got no real basis to believe that at this time.

Now, when Rich Baker says "my level 10 warlord had to sit around and cheer on the guys from the sidelines because he had several bad stats" (and his character has an 8 in one score, no?), then you will have ample reason to freak out. He hasn't said that. Heck, the notion that a character can't do something cool in 4E isn't something that's been suggested in any playtest report to date. Quite the contrary.

 

[Rechan]

Play some Star Wars Saga Edition - a game that HEAVILY pushes every heroic character to be at least competent in every stat. Yet, SWSE characters can actually TAKE ON those 3e challenges you insist on comparing 4e characters to, because the system EXPECTS them to have multiple good stats and offers rewards that make them more effective.

Ookay, now we're getting somewhere.

Here's the issue.

MAD is fine, if you have several good stats. Except, how do you propose that is guaranteed? Again, I reference playing a MAD character with 28 point buy. In my experience, many DMs want to limit just how big, or how many good stats you can have. Or, god forbid, you just roll low.

So even if everyone in the game has MAD, if all the monsters have MAD, if the system is built for you to have MAD - and then you only have one good stat and the rest are 12s, what are you going to do? You're only going to have ONE stat that's effective, and the rest which your class depends on are going to just hang there like vestigal limbs?

 

[Exen Trik]

Except that neither are class dependent. Apples and orangutans.

I think that it's important to point out that class abilities likely aren't set in stone either. Classes are less likely to have set abilities that use wisdom, charisma, and dexterity for example, but be able to choose among them. That would pretty much invalidate your complaint here.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So even if everyone in the game has MAD, if all the monsters have MAD, if the system is built for you to have MAD - and then you only have one good stat and the rest are 12s, what are you going to do? You're only going to have ONE stat that's effective, and the rest which your class depends on are going to just hang there like vestigal limbs?

You're still making a big jump here, and the colorful language obscures your point, rather than underscores it. A bit more Spock and a little less McCoy, please.

There's no reason to believe that a character with lots of 12s won't have access to their abilities or their abilities won't function. In fact, it's a rare situation in 3E where a class is crippled because someone "only" has a 12. And that's a problem with that class design, not with the use of multiple stats.

As has been said, 3.5 having classes that can get by with one or two 18s and a ton of cruddy stats (made worse by feats that allow saving throws to work off of different stats instead of the baseline) is the abberration in game design and the problem. Getting rid of that isn't a bad thing: It's a very, very good thing, because it makes more characters viable, not fewer.

 

[Rechan]

I think that it's important to point out that class abilities likely aren't set in stone either. Classes are less likely to have set abilities that use wisdom, charisma, and dexterity for example, but be able to choose among them. That would pretty much invalidate your complaint here.

Going back to Mearls comment which I initially responded to...

I set my Strength high because most warlord powers rely on melee attacks, and it’s useful just for dishing out some extra melee damage anyway. Warlords also have class features and powers that make use of Intelligence and Charisma

When I read this, I do not think "their abilities that they can Choose can utilize some of those skills".

 

[Hypersmurf]

From this I can only conclude that Rechan does not, in fact, know what "subpar" means.

In 4E, every class is below average!

-Hyp.

 

[Remathilis]

Ookay, now we're getting somewhere.

Here's the issue.

MAD is fine, if you have several good stats. Except, how do you propose that is guaranteed? Again, I reference playing a MAD character with 28 point buy. In my experience, many DMs want to limit just how big, or how many good stats you can have. Or, god forbid, you just roll low.

3.5 assumes a 25 point buy as default (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) I've never seen anyone play the game with stats that low.

I'll assume 4e will be as merciful and make classes assuming relatively the same amount of points (give or take), so that everyone I'll see play has better stats the the default assumption.

Between relaxed feat pre-reqs, 2 ability bumps per 4 levels (SAGA) and talent trees, I think less classes will NEED three or more 16s to run effectively. Heck, the scaling nature of level influencing saves, AC, Bab, damage (?), and skill rank alone (coupled with no-longer static save DCs) should take some of the burden off needing high scores to be useful.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

When I read this, I do not think "their abilities that they can Choose can utilize some of those skills".

Why do you think "some abilities won't function without high scores," though? A fighter's primary ability now (hittin' stuff so it falls down dead) functions off of Strength, but without a high Strength, a fighter can still hit stuff and it still will fall down dead, although said fighter might have to hit it an extra time or two.

Abilities that function off of multiple stats (a lot of the more recent core classes work that way, especially the spellcasting abilities of later classes) would work similarly to Mike's description here without ruining a character with average and "merely" above average scores.