Ridiculous amount of buffs

[NanocTheCivilized]

Buffing is part of the game, and it's always been part of the game.

Anti-magic fields are scary once in a while, but they place a blinking neon sign above your DM if he or she uses they ALL the time that says, "Uncreative."

I don't suggest using them all the time - for one thing the spell is not available unless the game is at a point where 6th level spells are available. However, using it once in a while might make the PCs stop and think a bit - and, when all is said and done, buffing before every encounter is just as uncreative.

I'm not sure about buffing always being part of the game either. In 1e and earlier there are no 1st level buff spells except Shield and Sanctuary. Strength arrives at 2nd level, but it's not an optimal choice (Web or Stinking Cloud are much more effective). It wasn't really until the MU had enough spells per level that Strength came into play - say around character level 7 and higher. There was Polymorph Self and Other at spell level 4, but these contested with Dimension Door (knwon as the MU's ejector seat in my group ).

2e changed things somewhat, but it really is only with 3e that I've seen the proliferation of buff spells.

Nanoc

 

[NanocTheCivilized]

"Extraordinary", but the point you make is a good one.

Quite right - my mistake.

Nanoc

 

[Mark CMG]

At what point does buffing become ridiculous?

I'm going to go with, "From the moment it was termed 'buffing?'"



Never much cared for that terminology. However, I do believe that some sort of cap is likely needed to reign in the unwieldiness of the game in this regard.

 

[molonel]

I don't suggest using them all the time - for one thing the spell is not available unless the game is at a point where 6th level spells are available. However, using it once in a while might make the PCs stop and think a bit ...

I've seen it used fairly frequently. It doesn't make people stop and think, because barring an epic spell to counter it, there really isn't anything you can do about it. It simply shuts you down. Oh well, sucks to be you. All magic items, magic weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, gone.

... and, when all is said and done, buffing before every encounter is just as uncreative.

Why is using buffing spells before every encounter, when you have the time, uncreative?

I'm not sure about buffing always being part of the game either. In 1e and earlier there are no 1st level buff spells except Shield and Sanctuary. Strength arrives at 2nd level, but it's not an optimal choice (Web or Stinking Cloud are much more effective). It wasn't really until the MU had enough spells per level that Strength came into play - say around character level 7 and higher. There was Polymorph Self and Other at spell level 4, but these contested with Dimension Door (knwon as the MU's ejector seat in my group ). 2e changed things somewhat, but it really is only with 3e that I've seen the proliferation of buff spells.

Buffing the tank was SOP in 2nd Edition. If we had time, we did the same thing in 1st Edition. You listed several yourself, and that you chose NOT to use them in favor of something else.

 

[Mark CMG]

How about a simple rule for the number of buffs (spell-provided) that can be active on a given character at once? Like, say, 1-3 with a few caveats.

For example, only one attribute buff at a time. If you are already the beneficiary of a Bull's Strength spell, and you get hit with Fox's cunning, your Int takes a bump, but your strength buff goes *poof*.

No combining barkskin and stoneskin, the one supercedes the other. And so forth.

I'm thinking, one attribute buff, one attack buff, one general ability buff (like speed), and one defensive buff.

So you could be the beneficiary of Bull's Strength, Haste, Magic Weapon and Stoneskin - but that's it. Categorize the buffs by type.

That cuts down on the management of high-level stats as well.

Hmmm...

Concept *Yoinked* for magic system in development.

Buff slots?

 

[NanocTheCivilized]

I've seen it used fairly frequently. It doesn't make people stop and think, because barring an epic spell to counter it, there really isn't anything you can do about it. It simply shuts you down. Oh well, sucks to be you. All magic items, magic weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, gone.

At which point a creative party will have to come up with some alternative to head-on confrontation. Like sneaking in undetected. Or retreating until AMF wears off. Or setting their own traps and retreating to lure the enemy into them. Or talking their way out of trouble. Or bribing the BBEG's henchmen. Or paying some other group of creatures to stage a diversionary attack. Or bypassing the enemy if it is not the main object of the scenario. Or undermining its support system if it has one.

Why is using buffing spells before every encounter, when you have the time, uncreative?

Because doing the same thing over and over again is pointlessly dull and boring - almost a definition of "uncreative". Why play a game where all you do is press the "WIN" button?

Nanoc

 

[JohnSnow]

Buff slots?

Sorta. I got the original idea from Arcana Unearthed. In that system, there's no "fox's cunning, bull's strength, owl's wisdom, yadda yadda..." There is, instead a single spell called "Enhance Ability." It enhances one attribute. If you're hit with it a second time, that spell replaces the existing one. That takes care of the multiple attribute buffs. Step 1.

As far as the rest, there's a relatively simple method, making use of the oft-abused stacking rules. All spells provide a "Spell bonus." Spell bonuses do NOT stack. That handles most of the rest of the abusive cases.

Finally, the character may be subject to up to X non-enhancement magical effects (invisibility, haste, contingency, etc.) at one time. Decide what you think is reasonable (Personally, I like 3). Attempts to layer spells on top of this instead causes the new spell to replace the oldest spell in effect. That handles most of the remainder cases.

So you might have an attribute boost, and up to 3 other buffs (or spell contingencies) active at one time. So if the caster has Contingent Teleport active, he can't also have Protection from Normal Missiles, Stoneskin, Barkskin, Greater Magic Weapon, Tenser's Transformation, Shield, Mage Armor, Fox's Cunning, and Bull's Strength.

Notice how silly it can get? Instead, he's got to pick the three most critical. It also encourages casters to burn their spells at a less rapid rate.

 

[Chimera]

Monsters flee instead of fighting until reinforcements are gathered and buffs run out.

That's exactly what I did against the BBEG of BGII. He'd cast some mega-protection spell and I'd run away and just keep running until his spell ran out.

The other side of the time wasting is just to say "OK, stop. I'd rather not spend half the session recalculating things. Either have them all written down before the start of the session, or we can just assume that the first couple of rounds are all moot, since you're going to cast a bunch of buffs and the bad guys will counter with a hailstorm of dispels. How long do you want to play that game?"

 

[seans23]

When I ran RttToEE, I got sick of this particular tactic by the pcs: Wake up at 10am, buff to the gills, clear three or four rooms, and teleport back to town to rest for the day. Rinse repeat. I believe they did this because of buffs. They wanted to make sure they had them all up before each fight.

There are so many clerics in that adventure, you shouldn't have any problem buffing the bad guys, too.

 

[molonel]

At which point a creative party will have to come up with some alternative to head-on confrontation. Like sneaking in undetected. Or retreating until AMF wears off. Or setting their own traps and retreating to lure the enemy into them. Or talking their way out of trouble. Or bribing the BBEG's henchmen. Or paying some other group of creatures to stage a diversionary attack. Or bypassing the enemy if it is not the main object of the scenario. Or undermining its support system if it has one.

Unfortunately, you suggested using regenerating trolls and rust monsters in close check to your AMF. So your players end up grappled, naked and weaponless in the AMF. At that point, sneaking is no longer an option, although it's certainly a smidgen easier since you're not wearing that pesky metal armor. Retreating is, well, out of the question. Setting traps is simply delaying the inevitable.

Talking is about all you've got left at that point. And prayer. Or hoping that someone was carrying a nice expensive gem you could offer as a bribe, although why someone wouldn't just TAKE it away from your defenseless person is a wonder.

Because doing the same thing over and over again is pointlessly dull and boring - almost a definition of "uncreative". Why play a game where all you do is press the "WIN" button?

You seem to assume that people with buffs always win. Curious.

And the fact of the matter is, you can't ALWAYS buff. It's a choice, and retreat isn't always an option. If you blow your wad too soon, then you might not have the juice when you need it. What if your opponent withdraws? Or worse, dispels? Or uses mooks to slow you down while your spells end or get dispelled?

All of the tactics you mentioned before are equally available to your monsters or NPCs.

Simply throwing them into an AMF - again - isn't very creative.

But saving your buffs until you need them? Not the same thing.