Riding intelligent mount

[marune]

However, riding an intelligent mount does not negate the need to hang on. Granting this free haste like ability to characters simply because they climb on an intelligent buddy is not the way to go.

The way I read it is that the rider needs to burn a move action to hang on, and either matched intitiave or must delay until the mount gets to the right point.

At home I have a HR sheet on riding unwilling or intelligent mounts that covers pretty much all of this.

Ok now I'm again confused, any rule gurus want to try this one ?

 

[kjenks]

Just read the Ride rules and (for an intelligent mount) ignore the Handle Animal rules.

 

[Dross]

However, riding an intelligent mount does not negate the need to hang on. Granting this free haste like ability to characters simply because they climb on an intelligent buddy is not the way to go.

The way I read it is that the rider needs to burn a move action to hang on, and either matched intitiave or must delay until the mount gets to the right point.

At home I have a HR sheet on riding unwilling or intelligent mounts that covers pretty much all of this.

True an intelligent mount does not negate the need to hang on, but an appropriate saddle is all that is needed and then using the ride skill as if on a horse (guide with knees, fight in the saddle etc). I think you only burn a move action if the mount is untrained for battle (not a warhorse). I would call an intelligent mount "Trained" for battle, but an unwilling intelligent mount would need a move action at least to stay on.

The fighter landing on the dragon is a different matter altogether though: Balance, maybe Climb and/or Ride checks would be needed as a move action to move say 5 feet.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I drew most of my HR stuff from the Ride skill itself, extrapolating somewhat.
{and having re-read it last night, you may notice some differences in what I post here and what is upthread...}

Key points:
- Ride check required if the mount executes an unexpected move {rear, bolt, etc}
- Ride check as a move action to control an untrained mount, failure wastes the entire round
- Full round actions limited to Ranged weapons and spells. Attack occurs at the mid-point of the mounts travel
- Melee attacks limited to a standard action
- Riding a controlled mount matches intiatives between rider and mount, the pair then shares move actions to some degree.


So, riding an uncontrolled mount...which is not directly addressed in the SRD..
- Mount is always executing unexpected moves
- Rider would have to coordinate timing to match actions in combat.

Simplest answer to these points would be:
- Require a Ride check to hang on each round. Extrapolating a bit from the key points above, as you are just hanging on, not attempting to control, use a free action Ride check to hang on, failure wastes a move action.

- Rider must use Ready actions if he/she wishes to act at some point during the mounts movement.

IMO this is as close to the RAW as we can get.. as this subject is one of the most poorly and most often used {or more correctly ignored} aspect of the rules.


An appropriate saddle would provide a slight bonus to the ride checks, but not negate the need for them. {altho a high enough skill would make actually rolling the check pointless }

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The mount being intelligent would would remove the need to Guide your mount, or control it in combat. The mount would act on it's own initiative, and you would have full round actions available to you (spontanious caster using a metamagic rod). A fighter would also be able to make it's full attack action with a bow, and melee attacks have special rules, but if you are attacking your mount or another rider on the same mount you would have your own attacks.

That is one reasonable interpretation, but not one I would use. As a matter of balance it makes it too easy to gain a full action or full iterative attack.

Furthermore it opens lots of loopholes to do the same. If I Handle Animal my horse to Attack, it will keep attacking as long as their are obvious enemies in the immediate vicinity -- that is the normal way to play an trained attack animal. So I do not really have to make further Handle Animal or Ride checks, and I can Delay to get my full attack (at the cost of some tactical flexibility).

I believe this most playable way to maintain the spirit of the rules is to lock the initiative of the rider/passengers with the mount. Now this can have it own problems...

D&D does not have good rules for "passengers" versus "riders".

I do not have a big problem with a Wizard or Archer gaining a full attack/action by being a passenger on a Huge or bigger Dragon, but the fact of intelligence should not cause a radical change in how one handles initiative.

 

[marune]

D&D does not have good rules for "passengers" versus "riders".

I do not have a big problem with a Wizard or Archer gaining a full attack/action by being a passenger on a Huge or bigger Dragon, but the fact of intelligence should not cause a radical change in how one handles initiative.

That is exactly the problem. If I'm a high-level character on a collossal wyrm that is flying with a "rider" on it that I want to attack, I have to "pay" a move action because the dragon is moving ? A bit strange...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That is exactly the problem. If I'm a high-level character on a collossal wyrm that is flying with a "rider" on it that I want to attack, I have to "pay" a move action because the dragon is moving ? A bit strange...

Yup. A bit strange.

This is one of those things where the DM should use some common sense and try to make things playable, fun, and close to balanced.

Here is what I would do...

First of all, I would require some kind of skill check. Ride would be the obvious choice, but I could see using Balance or Climb at a small penalty instead.

Second of all, the base target DC would depend on the manner the dragon is flying. Modifiers for the qualities of your saddle/chair/platform.

Third of all, it is sometimes reasonable to allow what would normally be a MEA as a Free Action. Of course the DC would be sustantially higher. And there would be penalties for failing that skill check, like you may end up using your Standard Action in order to not fall off.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Ridley's Cohort... looks like you and I think pretty much the same.

Skeptic.. you only have to 'pay' a move action if either:
- You fail your Ride check and have to grab on to the dragon to avoid falling off
or
- You wish to make an attack while the mount is moving {Ready action} since you do not match initiatives while acting as a passenger.

{Note: This response is based on an extrapolation of the rules..and this thread should probably wander off to the HR forum as the RAW does not cover this aspect}

One thing to keep in mind. While this thread is talking about mages on dragons, you should use the same mechanic for similar situations.....
Meaning the mechanics you use for the mage/dragon combo should be the same you use for the Halfing PC riding the Orc PC...


JMHO

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Meaning the mechanics you use for the mage/dragon combo should be the same you use for the Halfing PC riding the Orc PC...

Exactly. A full iterative attack can be very powerful. Think about how easily a Rogue optimized for multiple attacks could get 3 or 4 or 5 Flanking attacks. Rewriting the initiative rules completely simply because the mount is intelligent opens enormous loopholes.

The easiest exploit would be to put the Halfling Rogue on a Riding Dog Animal Companion. The Druid/Ranger moves forward to open a flank, and directs the AC so the Rogue gets the flanking attacks. The Dog makes its attack, giving a 5%-30% chance of Tripping the target prone. The Rogue Delays, then open up with his TWF full iterative attack right after the Druid/Ranger's initiative. If you use summoned creatures or good tactical postioning, the Rogue is not necessarily in any real danger from the conterattack -- which is the big downside for these kinds of Sneak Attack maximizing tactics.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Note that neither spellcasters nor archers are actually prevented from taking full attack actions by treating them as mounted when they are passengers on a dragon howdah or some such thing. The mounted archery rules permit an archer to fire from the back of a mount that is double moving (at penalties). The spellcasting rules simply require a (relatively easy) concentration check in order to cast from the back of a double moving mount.

I do not have a big problem with a Wizard or Archer gaining a full attack/action by being a passenger on a Huge or bigger Dragon, but the fact of intelligence should not cause a radical change in how one handles initiative.