D&D 5E Rime of the Frostmaiden Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[billd91]

Uh. When you start killing people for no reason, no proof that it's doing any good, there's no good-aligned reason for you to be able to continue being in power. If you are so desperate that you just start killing people (and there's what - three towns of the ten that just decided they'd start killing their own townsfolk) I don't think you deserve to stay in power anymore.

On that, we're clearly going to disagree.

 

[Retreater]

Oops, sorry. You’re not an awful DM! But that interaction with the NPC was awful.

How to do it different? Ditch the wishy-washy nonchalant “shrug-oh-well” attitude and play up the shame and fear and desperation. The town’s convinced this is necessary. They do know why they’re doing it. And it’s not a top-down decision. The townsfolk are all complicit, even cooperative, participating in the lottery. These towns are small. They all know the victims, or they know someone who knows the victims.

None of that makes the human sacrifice palatable, but it could lead the PCs to have some measure of empathy for the dire straits in Icewind Dale.

I guess the wish-washy tone of the example was partially due to my need for thread brevity - and kinda trying to entertain with the example.

The real exchange actually took about 2 hours of game time. But still the same points came across.
1. We are killing innocent people.
2. We are offering sacrifices to an evil goddess.
3. We don't know if it's doing any good.
4. If people try to escape, we track them down (sacrifices aren't voluntary) [which happens, because the assassin guy is going around trying to kill the people trying to avoid their name in the lottery]

Any maybe it's because of me that I can't understand the logic of this, that it's not explained well enough, or that it seems evil to me - maybe that's why I can't convey it in a way that doesn't seem suspect?

 

[Retreater]

If I recall properly, most everyone is participating, aren’t they? Via the lotteries? They’re convinced. They won’t stop just because the mayor is voted out of office (or slain by adventurers).

Nah. There are people trying to escape it, buy their way out, etc. That's why there's the assassin going around killing people as one of the starter quests.

 

[pukunui]

4. If people try to escape, we track them down (sacrifices aren't voluntary) [which happens, because the assassin guy is going around trying to kill the people trying to avoid their name in the lottery]

I didn't think the assassin was in the employ of the townsfolk. I thought he was just a vigilante acting on Auril's orders, as it were.

 

[billd91]

I didn't think the assassin was in the employ of the townsfolk. I thought he was just a vigilante acting on Auril's orders, as it were.

He is. He's basically helping Auril double-dip into the sacrifice pool - which suggests she's definitely interested in the sacrifices being made by the Ten Towners. She's just not stopping winter for them. The primary effect the sacrifices seem to be having is exempting anyone participating in the lottery (but not picked) from this additional cull by the serial killer.

 

[Irlo]

I guess the wish-washy tone of the example was partially due to my need for thread brevity - and kinda trying to entertain with the example.

The real exchange actually took about 2 hours of game time. But still the same points came across.
1. We are killing innocent people.
2. We are offering sacrifices to an evil goddess.
3. We don't know if it's doing any good.
4. If people try to escape, we track them down (sacrifices aren't voluntary) [which happens, because the assassin guy is going around trying to kill the people trying to avoid their name in the lottery]

Any maybe it's because of me that I can't understand the logic of this, that it's not explained well enough, or that it seems evil to me - maybe that's why I can't convey it in a way that doesn't seem suspect?

We agree that it should be explained more clearly.

 

[Retreater]

On that, we're clearly going to disagree.

We agree that it should be explained more clearly.

Here's the point I'm making. It's not that any of us are wrong in the way we interpret this. It can be good/evil/gray area.
It's that the issue isn't considered important enough to the designers of Rime to warrant an explanation, an exploration by the characters, a rationale.
This afternoon alone we have written more about it than is included in the book and provided better guidance about the situation than the writers did for our fellow DMs. We have, I'd say, given it more thought and consideration without being paid by the company.
That's one of the reasons this adventure fails. There is no logical follow through with several key concepts. Here alone is human sacrifice being performed by lawful good towns. It warrants about two sentences in the book.

 

[Scott Christian]

Yes. That's exactly what my group did.
Because the way it was written in the adventure.
"Why ... why are you doing this?" they ask.
"Uh ... we don't know. We guess it's helping," the Town Councilor responds.
"You guess?! You are f'ing murdering people!"
"Yeah, but it might work. We don't really have any proof."
Party huddles together. "Yeah, this guy is clearly insane or evil. Either way he needs to be disposed from power immediately!"
KILL THE MAYOR!!!!

I would be amazed if 75% of every group playing this adventure didn't have the same reaction. Because that is what is logical to do in the framework of a heroic fantasy adventure game like D&D.
If you are a writer and you have the bald-faced nerve to try to put in "non-evil human sacrifice" and expect it to be only a minor issue in the adventure, you deserve to have your writer's card taken away. It's like casually adding that a lawful good town kidnaps children or practices slavery. Once you do that, and I don't care what alignment the writer puts in the stat block, you're evil - and you're the enemy of a good aligned party.

Putting in a casual "oh, yeah, and they practice human sacrifice" is basically the same issue as "oh, yeah, and there hasn't been a growing season or sunlight in two years." The writers don't think how this would matter in the reality of the characters as actual people. It's as if they didn't even try to present the setting as a real, vibrant place.
It is a bad module. I'm really coming around to that now. I used to just say "it's flawed," but no - I think I can emphatically say "it's bad."

Sorry to barge in on the conversation, but what DM is setting up a human sacrifice that way?

Where is the walking through town seeing people in tears? The somber heads down and the old-grizzled men looking away? Where is the person that would explain why they in a rational and sympathetic manner, and maybe even detail how it is a new practice - especially to a group of armed-to-the-hilt outsiders!?

This acts like the DM didn't even read the adventure beforehand.

 

[Retreater]

Sorry to barge in on the conversation, but what DM is setting up a human sacrifice that way?

Where is the walking through town seeing people in tears? The somber heads down and the old-grizzled men looking away? Where is the person that would explain why they in a rational and sympathetic manner, and maybe even detail how it is a new practice - especially to a group of armed-to-the-hilt outsiders!?

This acts like the DM didn't even read the adventure beforehand.

Me. I'm that idiot.
So you have an adventure module you're prepping. All of your prep is performed to read and study which combat encounters are the least lethal to begin with, because the adventure doesn't do that for you and clearly sets up your party to get a TPK in their first encounter. (Just read the preparation notes online from various sites and watch a few YouTubers, and you can get nervous quickly.)
Then you are trying to understand what's going on in the various towns and prepare that, being aware that this is a big sandbox adventure and you can't possibly prep everything. You're going to try to guide the party to do the one or two quests that you think they will like the best and that you've prepared the most, but you don't want to railroad them. So at best you have a skeletal outline of the first chapter in mind.
Then you look at random encounters, weather factors, measuring out distances across the frozen wastes.
And if it's an early session, you're getting to know the characters, work in their stories and personalities, just trying to put out there what the adventure is about to get a buy-in.
So, let me assure you, I read the adventure beforehand. Let me assure you I also watched videos, read articles, downloaded DM's Guides on a third party site just to try to present this the best I can for my players. I may not be a professional DM, but out of the other DMs I know, I think I'm a pretty solid one. I think you (or most other posters on this forum) would have a pretty good time in most of my games. I'm also married, have a house that needs up keep, I have a job, some dogs that need attention. I expect when I buy an adventure from WotC (and its corresponding VTT components on Roll20), that most of the heavy lifting has been done for me. I think this is perfectly reasonable.
So let's consider how much attention the module gives the human sacrifice component.
Do they have a side quest or mission about it? Maybe names of the people who were sacrificed? Dates they were sacrificed? Names of their survivors? Names of the people who did the executions? The methods of performing the executions? What the sacrifices hoped to accomplish? How the lottery works?
Let's look at it in the larger context of Rime. Are the executions part of the plot? Could you remove them from the adventure? Is the adventure billed as a murder-mystery to stop human sacrifices to an evil goddess? What about the other sacrifices? Does it present why one town sacrifices food or fuel and the other does people?
Once you add something this big to an adventure, you'd better have the nerve to follow it through.
What should I have done? Well, I think it's safe to say I think I shouldn't have run this trainwreck of an adventure. But had I done it anyway, I shouldn't have put in this part of it.
That's why I'm bringing it up now. If someone reads this post-mortem before running it themselves, I'm encouraging them to remove or be willing to expand the human sacrifice element to something substantial. As it is written, there isn't enough information or importance to keep it.

 

[Scott Christian]

Me. I'm that idiot.

I wasn't calling you out specifically. But rather called out the, what I consider, ridiculous dialogue example.

So you have an adventure module you're prepping. All of your prep is performed to read and study which combat encounters are the least lethal to begin with, because the adventure doesn't do that for you and clearly sets up your party to get a TPK in their first encounter. (Just read the preparation notes online from various sites and watch a few YouTubers, and you can get nervous quickly.)
Then you are trying to understand what's going on in the various towns and prepare that, being aware that this is a big sandbox adventure and you can't possibly prep everything. You're going to try to guide the party to do the one or two quests that you think they will like the best and that you've prepared the most, but you don't want to railroad them. So at best you have a skeletal outline of the first chapter in mind.
Then you look at random encounters, weather factors, measuring out distances across the frozen wastes.
And if it's an early session, you're getting to know the characters, work in their stories and personalities, just trying to put out there what the adventure is about to get a buy-in.
So, let me assure you, I read the adventure beforehand. Let me assure you I also watched videos, read articles, downloaded DM's Guides on a third party site just to try to present this the best I can for my players. I may not be a professional DM, but out of the other DMs I know, I think I'm a pretty solid one. I think you (or most other posters on this forum) would have a pretty good time in most of my games. I'm also married, have a house that needs up keep, I have a job, some dogs that need attention. I expect when I buy an adventure from WotC (and its corresponding VTT components on Roll20), that most of the heavy lifting has been done for me. I think this is perfectly reasonable.

I have no doubt you are a good DM. And I understand time is precious. May I offer a suggestion? Instead of watching videos, downloading DM guides and reading those, reading articles, etc (it sounds very time intensive), perhaps just prep using your own thoughts and intuition. It might work out in your favor, and in turn, your group's favor.

So let's consider how much attention the module gives the human sacrifice component.
Do they have a side quest or mission about it? Maybe names of the people who were sacrificed? Dates they were sacrificed? Names of their survivors? Names of the people who did the executions? The methods of performing the executions? What the sacrifices hoped to accomplish? How the lottery works?
Let's look at it in the larger context of Rime. Are the executions part of the plot? Could you remove them from the adventure? Is the adventure billed as a murder-mystery to stop human sacrifices to an evil goddess? What about the other sacrifices? Does it present why one town sacrifices food or fuel and the other does people?
Once you add something this big to an adventure, you'd better have the nerve to follow it through.
What should I have done? Well, I think it's safe to say I think I shouldn't have run this trainwreck of an adventure. But had I done it anyway, I shouldn't have put in this part of it.
That's why I'm bringing it up now. If someone reads this post-mortem before running it themselves, I'm encouraging them to remove or be willing to expand the human sacrifice element to something substantial. As it is written, there isn't enough information or importance to keep it.

I never once claimed they implemented the sacrifices well. I simply asked, after reading your dialogue between the DM and players, why it would be introduced like that? I do think they could have done it better. I sympathize with first time DMs running this AP. That said, I think any DM with experience that reads the adventure will see some of the scenes in their need some setup. And if the DM knows their group - they most likely know where the sticking points will be. (That's a tough one since they might meet this very early on. Still, there is session zero.)