Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Maxperson]

That doesn't mean he's not going to get stumped when working with a brand-new material under extreme time pressure.

Sure, but he's not going to be stumped by anything suggested to him in the show. Even with a new material.

So basically any possible solution would have to be utterly incomprehensible to the audience. Got it.

Magic is utterly incomprehensible to the audience?

The Predator likes hunting and collecting trophies, the Alien is all about hunger and survival.

Both are more than that.

ET was pretty relatable. He's just someone lost and terrified who's trying to find his way home.

On some level yes, but he was also unrelatable and mysterious in other ways.

If we're going to be spending a lot of time with the elves, there's a limit to how mysterious and otherworldly they can be. Galadriel was mysterious for a few scenes. Legolas was a relatable travelling companion for three movies.

And yet Legolas could and did do many things that nobody else in the party could even begin to attempt.

 

[Ryujin]

That wasn't what I said, though. By doing it the way I suggested, it makes no difference whatsoever to the people who know nothing about the books. So they wouyld be playing to the fans of movies and shows just the same as they are now, not the die hard fans. They just wouldn't be kicking the die hard fans in the nads at the same time like they are now. It would be win/win instead of win/lose.

Well if those die hard fans want The Silmarillion, then they're going to be disappointed anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Well if those die hard fans want The Silmarillion, then they're going to be disappointed anyway.

What I suggested here do not require the events of that book. They can be true to the characters without the Silmarillion.

 

[trappedslider]

So, digging into the background of the show itself

Because Amazon only bought the television rights to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, the writers had to identify all of the references to the Second Age in those books and create a story that bridged those passages. These are primarily in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, but also in certain chapters and songs. Tolkien's estate was prepared to veto any changes from his established narrative, including anything that contradicted what Tolkien wrote in other works. The writers were free to add characters or details, and worked with the estate and Tolkien lore experts to ensure these were still "Tolkienian". They referenced The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien for additional context on the setting and characters. Simon Tolkien, a novelist and the grandson of J.R.R. Tolkien, consulted on the series and helped develop its story and character arcs. He is credited as a "series consultant"

Also, a disclaimer is featured in the series's end credits stating that some elements are "inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material.

Because the writers were mostly not able to adapt direct dialogue from Tolkien's Second Age stories, the writers attempted to repurpose Tolkien's dialogue that they did have access to while also taking inspiration from religious texts and poetry. They tailored the dialogue to different characters using dialects and poetic meters. Leith McPherson returned from the Hobbit films as dialect coach and noted that Tolkien's fictional languages evolve over time, so they are different for the Second Age compared to the Third. The series's Elves mostly speak Quenya, a language described as "Elvish Latin" that is often just used for spellcasting in the Third Age. Dwarvish and Orcish are also heard, along with English, Scottish, and Irish dialects. The biggest deviation made from Tolkien's works, which was approved by the estate and lore experts, was to condense the Second Age from thousands of years to a short period of time. This avoided human characters frequently dying due to their relatively short lifespans, and allowed major characters from later in the timeline to be introduced earlier in the series. The showrunners considered using non-linear storytelling instead, but felt this would prevent the audience from emotionally investing in the series. They said many real-life historical dramas also condense events like this, and felt they were still respecting the "spirit and feeling" of Tolkien's writings.

So anything you feel that deviates from Tolkien you can blame the estate and not amazon

 

[ART!]

Corey Olsen related a story one of the showrunners told, about asking the estate if they could use a character name that isn't in TH & LOTR, the estate said "no", so they showrunners said "okay, cool - we'll just name them 'Steve'" (they didn't actually propose "Steve", it's was just the name they used for this anecdoe), and the estate said "okay, fine, you can use the name".

Amazon can negotiate with the estate for limited use of stuff outside TH & LOTR. As a ridiculous example, if the rights they have include action figures and boardgames based on RoP, the estate might let them use a name in the show that isn't in those rights but limit it to use in the show itself, with no rights to use the name on action figure packaging or in a boardgame.

 

[Maxperson]

So, digging into the background of the show itself

Because Amazon only bought the television rights to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, the writers had to identify all of the references to the Second Age in those books and create a story that bridged those passages. These are primarily in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, but also in certain chapters and songs. Tolkien's estate was prepared to veto any changes from his established narrative, including anything that contradicted what Tolkien wrote in other works. The writers were free to add characters or details, and worked with the estate and Tolkien lore experts to ensure these were still "Tolkienian". They referenced The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien for additional context on the setting and characters. Simon Tolkien, a novelist and the grandson of J.R.R. Tolkien, consulted on the series and helped develop its story and character arcs. He is credited as a "series consultant"

Also, a disclaimer is featured in the series's end credits stating that some elements are "inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material.

Because the writers were mostly not able to adapt direct dialogue from Tolkien's Second Age stories, the writers attempted to repurpose Tolkien's dialogue that they did have access to while also taking inspiration from religious texts and poetry. They tailored the dialogue to different characters using dialects and poetic meters. Leith McPherson returned from the Hobbit films as dialect coach and noted that Tolkien's fictional languages evolve over time, so they are different for the Second Age compared to the Third. The series's Elves mostly speak Quenya, a language described as "Elvish Latin" that is often just used for spellcasting in the Third Age. Dwarvish and Orcish are also heard, along with English, Scottish, and Irish dialects. The biggest deviation made from Tolkien's works, which was approved by the estate and lore experts, was to condense the Second Age from thousands of years to a short period of time. This avoided human characters frequently dying due to their relatively short lifespans, and allowed major characters from later in the timeline to be introduced earlier in the series. The showrunners considered using non-linear storytelling instead, but felt this would prevent the audience from emotionally investing in the series. They said many real-life historical dramas also condense events like this, and felt they were still respecting the "spirit and feeling" of Tolkien's writings.

So anything you feel that deviates from Tolkien you can blame the estate and not amazon

Yes and no. Everything which was approved by the Tolkien estate, first had to be proposed by Amazon. Amazon isn't absolved because the estate said yes. Amazon could have been true to the characters and told this same story.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Yeah, well, characters in a TV show are supposed to be relatable.

They might not be the best to center a story around on TV. Even in book form, Tolkien centered his stories on hobbit and had elves as awe-inspiring, not humans with pointy ears.

I would think that they are supposed to be relatable in the same way that the Greek Gods are relatable. They have the same failings as humans, just.... BIGGER.

That. And the Greek Gods are unrelatable because they are above, in any case. Even if they are jerks, and have failings on a larger scale, they are above humans and going to them telling that you're on their level will end badly in a cosmologically justified way. You can understand them, but not really relate to them.

The scene where Elrond is surprised things have changed in as few as 20 years in a city and then apologizes for being 50 years late to Durin's wedding was great in showcasing a (small part of the) disconnect between the Elves and the other races. This scene was great because Durin points out the problem and Elrond just stay still, thinking, and then there is another shot where he thinks and stay silent, still in deep thoughts... as if he was making an effort to understand what the problem is, then he apologizes.

Sure the scene can be read as Elrond, shrewd politician, trying to think a way to mellow Durin's heart by asking to apologize to his family, but I don't think it was the intent. It was great at showing the disconnect between the more static elves and their relation to time passing and other races (even if the dwarves are long-lived too).

 

[trappedslider]

So is it ruined forever?

 

[Parmandur]

Yes and no. Everything which was approved by the Tolkien estate, first had to be proposed by Amazon. Amazon isn't absolved because the estate said yes. Amazon could have been true to the characters and told this same story.

Yes, they could have done the thing they accomplished, obviously.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The series's Elves mostly speak Quenya,

Are they? I thought they mostly speak the common language. Even Miriel is saying she's the daughter of Ar-Inziladûn instead of Tar-Palantir (probably because the audience would be puzzled by the palantir in his bedroom?), Durin decides to name his metal in sindarin with Elrond... Are there so many instance of quenya spoken in the show? It didn't strike me. I remember a few words exchanged between Elendil and Galadriel? The show is already longer than the three LotR fims and I have more striking recollection of elvish in those films (Gandalf and Saruman battling over the Caradhras for example) than in the show.

So anything you feel that deviates from Tolkien you can blame the estate and not amazon

Both can be blamed equally, but I tend to blame less the people who take the money than the one with the idea and the money ;-) If I were to receive half a billion for it, I'd proclaim forever that Star Wars Holiday Specials is the best episode of the whole series, just missing Jar Jar Binks to achieve utmost perfection.