Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Hriston]

In The LotR, it makes sense that Gandalf forgets who he is. His physical body was destroyed along with the physical part of his memory, and it takes some time for that to be recovered. But what's the reason that Gandalf in this story arrives in Middle-earth with no sense of his own identity? He hasn't been killed and is, I suppose, fresh from Valinor. It seems merely that a contrivance was needed to create uncertainty in the viewer. Too much of this show is like that.

 

[Mercurius]

I just watched the first half hour of this video, and I admit I'm baffled; it seemed to me that Mr Olsen was making tenuous connections, framing the pedestrian as profound, and treating - what seems to me - a rather crass and mediocre production as though it were high art, replete with nuance and clever, meaningful symbolism.

I just don't see it. I mean, I consider myself relatively cultured, and receptive to well-reasoned and well-articulated commentary and artistic critique; I suppose it's possible I'm missing something. But my instinct is that it was a load of hot air and guff; all waffle, with no substance.

In The LotR, it makes sense that Gandalf forgets who he is. His physical body was destroyed along with the physical part of his memory, and it takes some time for that to be recovered. But what's the reason that Gandalf in this story arrives in Middle-earth with no sense of his own identity? He hasn't been killed and is, I suppose, fresh from Valinor. It seems merely that a contrivance was needed to create uncertainty in the viewer. Too much of this show is like that.

Yes, to both of these. The kind of "forced profundity and drama" is a major criticism I have with the series. So often the viewer is told that this is a profound or dramatic moment, you should be feeling something right now...without much to back it up. Perhaps the most egregious example being Nori's farewell with the Harfoots...it just went on and on, with hug after hug, and I personally just didn't feel it, because none of the characters were ever developed beyond very surface characterization. It is textbook amateurish writing: telling and not showing.

As for Gandalf, I actually don't mind how they handled him. I agree that it was a bit contrived, but it does make some sense that a Maia would incarnate into human form and be somewhat disoriented...maybe not for that long, and of course the "Is he Sauron?" bit was another contrived cheap mystery box that wasn't all that mysterious.

 

[OB1]

So often the viewer is told that this is a profound or dramatic moment, you should be feeling something right now...without much to back it up. Perhaps the most egregious example being Nori's farewell with the Harfoots...it just went on and on, with hug after hug, and I personally just didn't feel it, because none of the characters were ever developed beyond very surface characterization. It is textbook amateurish writing: telling and not showing.

I'm not sure how you see this as an example of 'showing not telling'. Throughout the first season, we see Nori struggling with her place in Harfoot society, flirting with striking out on her own but afraid to and being told that to do so would mean her demise. When she finally musters the courage to do it, she's still scared, still worried that she's making the wrong choice, and knows that in all likelihood she will never see these people she's spent her whole life with again. That last bit is important, because leaving family can be an incredibly difficult decision, even when everything in your soul wants to do it. I'd say her just walking off without seeing that emotion play out would have been odd, to say the least. Telling would have been if she left without showing emotion, then on the road told the Stranger "Man, it sure was hard leaving them, I don't know if I'll ever see them again. This is the hardest thing I've ever done."

As for mystery boxes, they are typically only an issue when either the writer doesn't have a clear answer to the mystery that informs the rest of the story (See Rey's parents from Force Awakens) or when the answer to the mystery is only satisfying to the audience, and doesn't make any narrative sense in the story itself (See Khan in ST: Into Darkness). The Sauron and Stranger mysteries in RoP both have clear answers, and more critically, are important to the characters in the story. Nori had a legitimate reason to be fearful of who the Stranger really was, and had her faith tested when the Warlocks (or whoever the white robed ladies are) tested the Stranger. That she ultimately had her faith in her own heart rewarded, it's earned because of the mystery. That Galadriel was deceived by Sauron is important to both her story and the plot in general.

 

[Hriston]

Yes, to both of these. The kind of "forced profundity and drama" is a major criticism I have with the series. So often the viewer is told that this is a profound or dramatic moment, you should be feeling something right now...without much to back it up. Perhaps the most egregious example being Nori's farewell with the Harfoots...it just went on and on, with hug after hug, and I personally just didn't feel it, because none of the characters were ever developed beyond very surface characterization. It is textbook amateurish writing: telling and not showing.

As for Gandalf, I actually don't mind how they handled him. I agree that it was a bit contrived, but it does make some sense that a Maia would incarnate into human form and be somewhat disoriented...maybe not for that long, and of course the "Is he Sauron?" bit was another contrived cheap mystery box that wasn't all that mysterious.

It would have made more sense if he had been Sauron because, according to Adar, Sauron actually had been killed. Thus the need for reembodiment. Coming directly from Valinor, Gandalf would have been provided by the Valar with a body perfectly suited to the inhabitation of his spirit, in which he could have made the journey to Middle-earth with his memory intact.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

It would have made more sense if he had been Sauron because, according to Adar, Sauron actually had been killed. Thus the need for reembodiment. Coming directly from Valinor, Gandalf would have been provided by the Valar with a body perfectly suited to the inhabitation of his spirit, in which he could have made the journey to Middle-earth with his memory intact.

I don't necessarily object to the arrival of the Istar via meteor, nor to his frailty and amnesia; this is somewhat consistent with the way the wizards are portrayed in the Third Age, where they are Maiar embodied in flesh, diminished, and have a faint memory of Valinor as "distant."

While we know that Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast arrive via ship in the Third Age, Tolkien's later writings place the two Blue Wizards (who go into the East) in the Second - much can therefore be left implicit or tacit with regard to the Stranger's identity, if the showrunners decide to go that route. My fear, however, is that they will not be able to resist identifying him with Gandalf - as he brings a certain brand recognition. My hope is that they'll avoid this: maybe the writers haven't even decided yet.

More broadly, I think there are many, many egregious contradictions of Tolkien's ideas where I feel that leaning into the lore would have served the writers much better in crafting a story and evoking the mythic feel which characterizes his work.

 

[Hriston]

I don't necessarily object to the arrival of the Istar via meteor, nor to his frailty and amnesia; this is somewhat consistent with the way the wizards are portrayed in the Third Age, where they are Maiar embodied in flesh, diminished, and have a faint memory of Valinor as "distant."

While we know that Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast arrive via ship in the Third Age, Tolkien's later writings place the two Blue Wizards (who go into the East) in the Second - much can therefore be left implicit or tacit with regard to the Stranger's identity, if the showrunners decide to go that route. My fear, however, is that they will not be able to resist identifying him with Gandalf - as he brings a certain brand recognition. My hope is that they'll avoid this: maybe the writers haven't even decided yet.

More broadly, I think there are many, many egregious contradictions of Tolkien's ideas where I feel that leaning into the lore would have served the writers much better in crafting a story and evoking the mythic feel which characterizes his work.

I think the faint memory of Valinor is attributable to having lived in Middle-earth in the same body for two-thousand years at that point.

I think the final episode makes it clear the Stranger is Gandalf when he tells Nori to "always follow your nose", echoing verbatim Gandalf's line to Merry in the LotR.

On the broader issue, I agree. If the source material had been allowed to constrain the writing more, I think the show would have felt more like Tolkien rather than the mixed bag we got.

 

[gorice]

@gorice curious as to why you feel Galadriel's obsession with Sauron and conflict with the Elves is contrived? I felt the story did a good job of showing why the death of her brother specifically pushed her towards vengeance against Sauron, and how that obsession led to conflict with her society. It's not just about fighting a vague 'evil' or 'enemy', she is personally connected to the tragedy of it in a very real way. You are correct that her obsession moves the plot, as her refusal to leave is the inciting incident that allows Sauron's influence to grow. She's not doing the right thing, and the elves know it (much like Durin's father knows mining for Mithril is a bad idea, while Durin's drive to do so is driven by his personal friendship with Elrond). The show cleverly asks us to root for Galadriel and Durin to buck the council of their elders, while making their actions the cause of much strife to come. The plot then leads into the themes of the show, in trusting in Grace.

So we end up with Character driving Plot driving Theme, which is the backbone of good storytelling.

I agree that it has the skeleton of good storytelling, but the details aren't there. Galadriel's obsession with Sauron, and everyone else's seeming indifference, just don't feel authentic. One the one hand, why does nobody else take the threat seriously? On the other, why is Galadriel so singularly obsessed? A Cassandra-type character is such a cliche, and rather than really selling us the conflict, the writers have the elves behave like idiots.

It doesn't help that we have to endure the exact same scenario playing out in that human village where everyone is always covered in crap, and with equally flimsy justification. Galadriel and Blue-dress-woman aren't crying wolf: they have evidence, which other people have seen, that something is wrong. The reason they are ignored is to generate false drama.

Then there's the bit where Galadriel apparently decides not to return to Valinor, then goes anyway, then jumps off the ship (!?). It's completely contrived, written only to make dramatic action happen.

 

[Garthanos]

Then there's the bit where Galadriel apparently decides not to return to Valinor, then goes anyway, then jumps off the ship (!?). It's completely contrived, written only to make dramatic action happen.

For me that is a way to visualize an internal conflict and its resolution, shrug. If they talked her head game out loud that would be pretty meh... perhaps they could have had her meditating and done some visualizing her conflict in a vision. It is supposed to be a big choice.

 

[gorice]

For me that is a way to visualize an internal conflict and its resolution, shrug. If they talked her head game out loud that would be pretty meh... perhaps they could have had her meditating and done some visualizing her conflict in a vision. It is supposed to be a big choice.

I get that, but it seemed like she'd already made up her mind before she left. Then she decides to jump into the ocean (and don't they have boats going the other way in this period?), which is just another way of getting to Valinor, really, except that we know she won't be allowed to die even when she does something suicidal, so then we have to sit through a bunch of scenes containing exactly zero stakes or drama until she eventually gets wherever the writers have decided she needs to be.

 

[Maxperson]

@gorice curious as to why you feel Galadriel's obsession with Sauron and conflict with the Elves is contrived? I felt the story did a good job of showing why the death of her brother specifically pushed her towards vengeance against Sauron, and how that obsession led to conflict with her society. It's not just about fighting a vague 'evil' or 'enemy', she is personally connected to the tragedy of it in a very real way. You are correct that her obsession moves the plot, as her refusal to leave is the inciting incident that allows Sauron's influence to grow. She's not doing the right thing, and the elves know it (much like Durin's father knows mining for Mithril is a bad idea, while Durin's drive to do so is driven by his personal friendship with Elrond). The show cleverly asks us to root for Galadriel and Durin to buck the council of their elders, while making their actions the cause of much strife to come. The plot then leads into the themes of the show, in trusting in Grace.

So we end up with Character driving Plot driving Theme, which is the backbone of good storytelling.

The last episode makes her "obsession" a lie.

Galadriel: "Sauron killed my brother so I'm going to obsessively search for him for centuries and make him pay!!!!!"

Also Galadriel: "What? You're Sauron. Sure, you can stay in Middle Earth and I won't kill you or mobilize the elves to move against you. Hell, I won't even tell them who you are. I'll just vaguely imply that you're bad by telling them not to trust you for reasons that I won't state. Have a great time organizing the downfall of the elves and Middle Earth. Don't trip on the last step. It's loose."

That's not the act of 1) one of the wisest elves to ever live, 2) someone obsessed with stopping Sauron, 3) an elf who values her people. It's 100% NOT Galadriel, Heck, it's not even consistent with the Galadriel the show gave us for the entire rest of the season.