Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Sepulchrave II]

we have to sit through a bunch of scenes containing exactly zero stakes or drama until she eventually gets wherever the writers have decided she needs to be.

She gets rescued by Sauron, who happens to be floating by on a raft. They are attacked by a sea monster, but survive. Fortunately, Elendil is sailing by and rescues both of them.

Let's just let that sink in again. And it's not a "chance meeting" (as we say in Middle-Earth) or "providence," indicative of some deep understanding of Tolkien's themes. It's transparent, badly-written contrivance.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I agree that it has the skeleton of good storytelling, but the details aren't there. Galadriel's obsession with Sauron, and everyone else's seeming indifference, just don't feel authentic. One the one hand, why does nobody else take the threat seriously? On the other, why is Galadriel so singularly obsessed? A Cassandra-type character is such a cliche, and rather than really selling us the conflict, the writers have the elves behave like idiots.

Or make us think that Galadriel did cry wolf. She might have warned about tens of Saurons during her millinia-long quest to eradicate him and his supporters so she doesn't have any credibility left at this point. It would be coherent with how she's depicted in the show, but would need more development than "everyone else has stopped looking for Sauron" (to the point they'd consider forcing her going to Valinor to heal, out of pity for her being psychologically scarred and unable to function without a therapy). I am not sure it would be a great protagonist for the show when they are trying to have a strong female lead, but if they are going to rewrite the story while keeping the name, they might as well go overboard with it. (self-consistency > consistency with other sources).

Then there's the bit where Galadriel apparently decides not to return to Valinor, then goes anyway, then jumps off the ship (!?). It's completely contrived, written only to make dramatic action happen.

A tangent (I agree it was badly done but I have a question anyway). How wide was the sea at the time of the Second Age? I might remember badly and Tolkien scholars will be able to help here, but wasn't a city from Valinor (Alqualondë?) seen from a tower in Numenor (not the big peak in the middle, some place West)? That and the ban of the Valar to have ships leave sight of Numenor toward the West so they couldn't see the lights from the Undying Land implies that the two coasts weren't that far. I am not saying it's wise to have Galadriel jump, but if it was only 40 or 50 km wide, it is doable by swim from a low, current-time man, with the world record being just over 100 km, and we can give credit to Galadriel to beat it. On the other hand, the map shown at the beginning of the show is very "Atlantic Ocean looking", distance-wise.

I get that, but it seemed like she'd already made up her mind before she left. Then she decides to jump into the ocean (and don't they have boats going the other way in this period?),

The period is hard to define,,. but if we accept that everything is condensed toward the end of the SA, then no, there were no ships from Valinor since at least Tar-Palantir's birth and probably a few centuries before that.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I liked the show overall (in that I enjoyed watching it). It was a decent piece of fantasy entertainment.

However, the flaws that are pointed out here ARE its flaws. Without them, it would have been a whole lot better. (Of course, you'd have to replace them with something better. I suppose it would have been possible to replace them with something worse, or do the parts that were good wrong while doing the other parts right).

At any rate, in the end it was a good show, but not the best Tolkien. Maybe it will get better as they find their feet. A lot of shows do.

 

[Dausuul]

A tangent (I agree it was badly done but I have a question anyway). How wide was the sea at the time of the Second Age? I might remember badly and Tolkien scholars will be able to help here, but wasn't a city from Valinor (Alqualondë?) seen from a tower in Numenor? That and the ban of the Valar to have ships leave sight of Numenor toward the West so they couldn't see the lights from the Undying Land implies that the two coasts weren't that far. I am not saying it's wise to have Galadriel jump, but if it was only 40 or 50 km wide, it is doable by swim from a low, current-time man, with the world record being just over 100 km, and we can give credit to Galadriel to beat it. On the other hand, the map shown at the beginning of the show is very "Atlantic Ocean looking", distance-wise.

Canonically, the world at the time was flat. On a flat world, your vision is limited only by atmospheric haze and your ability to make out detail; no curvature of the earth means no horizon. The earth only became round with the fall of Numenor.

If we set that aside and assume a curved earth of comparable size to our own, and note that the Numenoreans had to be at the peak of the Meneltarma to see Tol Eressea, then we get a distance of 150-200 miles, depending on how high the Meneltarma is--I assume at least 3 miles.

(I don't think Tolkien really thought through the implications of this stuff. Vision goes two ways: If a Numenorean on the Meneltarma can see the harbor of Tol Eressea, then the same Numenorean in the harbor of Tol Eressea can see the Meneltarma. That would put Tol Eressea outside the Ban of the Valar, which is clearly not intended. Edit: Never mind, I should have gone back and checked. The Ban of the Valar forbade them to sail west beyond sight of the coasts of Numenor, which would obviously be at sea level.)

 

[Maxperson]

Or make us think that Galadriel did cry wolf. She might have warned about tens of Saurons during her millinia-long quest to eradicate him and his supporters so she doesn't have any credibility left at this point. It would be coherent with how she's depicted in the show, but would need more development than "everyone else has stopped looking for Sauron" (to the point they'd consider forcing her going to Valinor to heal, out of pity for her being psychologically scarred and unable to function without a therapy). I am not sure it would be a great protagonist for the show when they are trying to have a strong female lead, but if they are going to rewrite the story while keeping the name, they might as well go overboard with it. (self-consistency > consistency with other sources).

The show did not set her up to have cried wolf over Sauron. She was the only one who thought he was alive, but if she had repeatedly cried wolf, she would not have been left in charge of the armies and would not have been leading that group of elves that rebelled in the first episode.

A tangent (I agree it was badly done but I have a question anyway). How wide was the sea at the time of the Second Age? I might remember badly and Tolkien scholars will be able to help here, but wasn't a city from Valinor (Alqualondë?) seen from a tower in Numenor (not the big peak in the middle, some place West)? That and the ban of the Valar to have ships leave sight of Numenor toward the West so they couldn't see the lights from the Undying Land implies that the two coasts weren't that far. I am not saying it's wise to have Galadriel jump, but if it was only 40 or 50 km wide, it is doable by swim from a low, current-time man, with the world record being just over 100 km, and we can give credit to Galadriel to beat it. On the other hand, the map shown at the beginning of the show is very "Atlantic Ocean looking", distance-wise.

The sea was objectively not swimmable by an elf. The elves required ships to sail from Middle Earth to Valinor, and ships to sail(after the kinslaying) back to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth. There was also the Helcaraxe in the far north, which meant that there was a landbridge of some sort from the north pole to Valinor, but thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of elves died when Galadriel and Fingolfin made that crossing with their people.

And then multiple times in the Silmarillion we have elves drowning within sight of land, though the water was stormy then. However, if elves were capable of swimming thousands of miles across the ocean, then staying afloat in a storm would be child's play.

The Numenoreans were not in sight of Aman from their coast. They were forbidden from sailing out of sight to the west because the Valar feared if they did they would eventually see Aman. To compensate they sailed out of sight to the east and went to Middle Earth.

 

[trappedslider]

The sea was objectively not swimmable by an elf. The elves required ships to sail from Middle Earth to Valinor, and ships to sail(after the kinslaying) back to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth. There was also the Helcaraxe in the far north, which meant that there was a landbridge of some sort from the north pole to Valinor, but thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of elves died when Galadriel and Fingolfin made that crossing with their people.

And then multiple times in the Silmarillion we have elves drowning within sight of land, though the water was stormy then. However, if elves were capable of swimming thousands of miles across the ocean, then staying afloat in a storm would be child's play.

The Numenoreans were not in sight of Aman from their coast. They were forbidden from sailing out of sight to the west because the Valar feared if they did they would eventually see Aman. To compensate they sailed out of sight to the east and went to Middle Earth.

so, where in the page-and-a-half paragraph of Appendix B The Tale of Years and timeline was all this?

 

[Maxperson]

so, where in the page-and-a-half paragraph of Appendix B The Tale of Years and timeline was all this?

I love how you specify Appendix B and the Timeline as if I'm limited to only where you tell me to look.

The last part regarding the Numenoreans is in Appendix A. "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth, the Valar, the Guardians of the World, granted to the Edain a land to dwell in, removed from the dangers of Middle-Earth. Most of them, therefore, set sail over the Sea, and guided by the Star of Elendil came to the great Isle of Elenna, westernmost of all Mortal lands. There they founded the realm of Numenor."

And also...

"Thence the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts; but one command had been laid upon the Numenoreans, the "Ban of the Valar": they were forbidden to sail west out of sight of their own shores or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands."

Had Numenor been within sight of Middle-Earth, they would not have needed a star to guide them. Had Aman been within sight of Numenor, they could not possibly have sailed west out of sight of their own shores, therefore it only makes sense that past the sight of their own shores they would at some point have seen Aman.

Therefore, we know that the ocean is far too wide to swim and not narrow as @Galandris was theorizing, which makes my first paragraph true. It becomes even more true since the Helcaraxe is not in the LotR Appendices, so all they could use was the super wide ocean we know exists.

The only part of my post that isn't either in Appendix A or is a result of Appendix A, is the paragraph of the drowning elves, which simply doesn't matter to my point and was thrown in as additional information.

 

[trappedslider]

I love how you specify Appendix B and the Timeline as if I'm limited to only where you tell me to look.

Where the last part regarding the Numenoreans is in Appendix A. "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth, the Valar, the Guardians of the World, granted to the Edain a land to dwell in, removed from the dangers of Middle-Earth. Most of them, therefore, set sail over the Sea, and guided by the Star of Elendil came to the great Isle of Elenna, westernmost of all Mortal lands. There they founded the realm of Numenor."

And also...

"Thence the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts; but one command had been laid upon the Numenoreans, the "Ban of the Valar": they were forbidden to sail west out of sight of their own shores or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands."

Had Numenor been within sight of Middle-Earth, they would not have needed a star to guide them. Had Aman been within sight of Numenor, they could not possibly have sailed west out of sight of their own shores, therefore it only makes sense that past the sight of their own shores they would at some point have seen Aman.

Therefore, we know that the ocean is far too wide to swim and not narrow as @Galandris was theorizing, which makes my first paragraph true. It becomes even more true since the Helcaraxe is not in the LotR Appendices, so all they could use was the super wide ocean we know exists.

The only part of my post that isn't either in Appendix A or is a result of Appendix A, is the paragraph of the drowning elves, which simply doesn't matter to my point and was thrown in as additional information.

And you did all that without citing a book that the producers can only allude to.

 

[Maxperson]

And you did all that without citing a book that the producers can only allude to.

They have full use of the LotR and the movies. Otherwise they could not have used the part about Morgoth stealing the Silmarils and heading to Middle Earth to make war.

You don't get to limit me to Appendix B when the produces can fully use(and did use) Appendix A.

What Material Does Amazon Have The Rights To For The Rings Of Power Answered!

One burning question fans have had is what material does Amazon have the rights to for The Rings of Power show? Well we know have an answer courtesy of

lrmonline.com

"“We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” "

 

[Dausuul]

And you did all that without citing a book that the producers can only allude to.

The rules of "alluding to" the Silmarillion are clearly pretty lenient. They built Galadriel's entire motivation on Sauron killing her brother Finrod, and you can only get that information from the Silmarillion. The Appendices say Finrod Felagund died saving the life of Beren, and that's all--nothing hints that Sauron was involved in any way.