Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Maxperson]

So the actual sentence is "world-renowned Tolkien scholars and the Tolkien estate"

Who are these "world-renowned Tolkien scholars" in your Appeal to Authority, and exactly how much did Amazon listen to them. Could have been 0.

We've already talked about how the IP holder (the estate which would include Simon Tolkien) may or may not view/treat the work, but the scholars themselves are a different matter. Since the only name of a Tolkien scholar that was/is attached to the project we have is Thomas Alan Shippey, we really don't have much to go on other than rumors regarding his leaving the project. We also don't know who the other scholars are.

This is what Shippey said of The LotR movies.

"The funny thing about interviews is you never know which bits they're going to pick. It always feels as if they sit you down, shine bright lights in your eyes, and ask you questions till you say something really silly, and that's the bit they choose. At least they didn't waterboard me. But it was good fun, and I'd cheerfully do it again."― Tom Shippey"

It seems likely, given how little the show feels like Tolkien, that Amazon either ignored him or went with the silly stuff.

This is rumor, so I don't put much stock in it, but...

Rumor: The Lord Of The Rings Scholar Tom Shippey Fired For Telling Prime Video They Were "Polluting The Lore"

A new rumor claims that Tom Shippey, The Lord of the Rings scholar and former consultant on The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, was fired from the Prime Video show because he was warning them that they were "polluting the lore."

boundingintocomics.com

Rumor: The Lord Of The Rings Scholar Tom Shippey Fired For Telling Prime Video They Were “Polluting The Lore”​

In any case, Shippey left the show pretty early, so I don't think he can really be cited as someone that they listened to.

 

[trappedslider]

Who are these "world-renowned Tolkien scholars" in your Appeal to Authority, and exactly how much did Amazon listen to them. Could have been 0.

This is what Shippey said of The LotR movies.

"The funny thing about interviews is you never know which bits they're going to pick. It always feels as if they sit you down, shine bright lights in your eyes, and ask you questions till you say something really silly, and that's the bit they choose. At least they didn't waterboard me. But it was good fun, and I'd cheerfully do it again."― Tom Shippey"

It seems likely, given how little the show feels like Tolkien, that Amazon either ignored him or went with the silly stuff.

This is rumor, so I don't put much stock in it, but...

Rumor: The Lord Of The Rings Scholar Tom Shippey Fired For Telling Prime Video They Were "Polluting The Lore"

A new rumor claims that Tom Shippey, The Lord of the Rings scholar and former consultant on The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, was fired from the Prime Video show because he was warning them that they were "polluting the lore."

boundingintocomics.com

Rumor: The Lord Of The Rings Scholar Tom Shippey Fired For Telling Prime Video They Were “Polluting The Lore”​

In any case, Shippey left the show pretty early, so I don't think he can really be cited as someone that they listened to.

I acknowledged all that, and it's basically a circle because it comes back to your very strong views vs theirs on the subject matter. We know from interviews and fan interaction that the guys behind this project are fans you may not call them fans but then that goes down the rabbit hole of no true Scotsman along with my knowledge-fu is stronger than yours.

btw if I can go back to my comment about Chrisphoer buying back the rights, I mean including the time before the movies including the animated one.

 

[Dausuul]

I acknowledged all that, and it's basically a circle because it comes back to your very strong views vs theirs on the subject matter.

If by "theirs" you mean the experts cited by Payne, we don't know their views. We have only hearsay from a source with the biggest conflict of interest imaginable.

 

[trappedslider]

If by "theirs" you mean the experts cited by Payne, we don't know their views. We have only hearsay from a source with the biggest conflict of interest imaginable.

I mean everyone involved from the estate to the other scholars and the show makers.

 

[Maxperson]

I acknowledged all that, and it's basically a circle because it comes back to your very strong views vs theirs on the subject matter. We know from interviews and fan interaction that the guys behind this project are fans you may not call them fans but then that goes down the rabbit hole of no true Scotsman along with my knowledge-fu is stronger than yours.

I never said that they weren't fans. I said that I don't believe any fans would have zero complaints about the show, which isn't the same as no true Scotsman.

btw if I can go back to my comment about Chrisphoer buying back the rights, I mean including the time before the movies including the animated one.

Yeah. I figured as much. While the movies were much better at capturing the Tolkien feel, they still weren't all that good and took liberties that probably caused Tolkien to roll over in his grave. Much like the show, I enjoyed the movies as a fantasy tale, but not as Lord of the Rings.

 

[Parmandur]

Honestly, the part about the elves stealing jobs in Numenor doesn't sound 5-star dialogue. Numenorean are supposed to become morally corrupt as they divorce themselves from the Faithful, but illustrating it by putting in their words criticisms of mass immigration from the 70's by the far right is silly (as lack of job isn't a characteristics of pre-industralized societies, plus a single Elf over the whole life of Tar-Palantir doesn't really evoke mass immigration), dated in its choice of slur, and out of place in a fantasy show. I found that jarring (I'd have liked it in a Rick & Morty episode, but not in a high fantasy show).

Maybe it's an Anglo-American thing, but that sort of rant never feels dated or untimely: Shakespeare was writing about it 500 years ago (Sur Thomas More the play), and it dominates political discourse now and as far back as living memory goes.

Actually, more than Tolkienian, those Numenor bits felt Virgillian, calling back to the Aenied.

 

[Hriston]

Canonically, the world at the time was flat. On a flat world, your vision is limited only by atmospheric haze and your ability to make out detail; no curvature of the earth means no horizon. The earth only became round with the fall of Numenor.

If we set that aside and assume a curved earth of comparable size to our own, and note that the Numenoreans had to be at the peak of the Meneltarma to see Tol Eressea, then we get a distance of 150-200 miles, depending on how high the Meneltarma is--I assume at least 3 miles.

(I don't think Tolkien really thought through the implications of this stuff. Vision goes two ways: If a Numenorean on the Meneltarma can see the harbor of Tol Eressea, then the same Numenorean in the harbor of Tol Eressea can see the Meneltarma. That would put Tol Eressea outside the Ban of the Valar, which is clearly not intended. Edit: Never mind, I should have gone back and checked. The Ban of the Valar forbade them to sail west beyond sight of the coasts of Numenor, which would obviously be at sea level.)

I'd place the Meneltarma at the location of the Josephine Seamount and Tol Eressëa at the location of Terceira in the Azores, some 700 miles distant. Though, keep in mind it was only the "farsighted" who could see the white tower from the summit.

 

[Parmandur]

I think different people can be receptive to different things. For example, I really don't care about the 'spirit of Tolkien', but I do like a lot of Tolkien's aesthetic sensibilities, which are mostly absent from the screen adaptations.

There's probably also a distinction to be made between technique and outcome. You might enjoy watching Galadriel chew the scenery, while I'm sitting there saying 'her obsession with Sauron and the conflict between her and the other elves is completely contrived, and clearly only there to make the plot move'.

All stories are contrived, it's how they pull it off. Again, maybe watch more than one episode here.

 

[Parmandur]

I like the "mystery box" too...if it is done well. But there's the rub, no?

Yes, and this was rather the perfect execution here.

 

[Parmandur]

I just watched the first half hour of this video, and I admit I'm baffled; it seemed to me that Mr Olsen was making tenuous connections, framing the pedestrian as profound, and treating - what seems to me - a rather crass and mediocre production as though it were high art, replete with nuance and clever, meaningful symbolism.

I just don't see it. I mean, I consider myself relatively cultured, and receptive to well-reasoned and well-articulated commentary and artistic critique; I suppose it's possible I'm missing something. But my instinct is that it was a load of hot air and guff; all waffle, with no substance.

Yeah, that's bizarre because my experience is the precise opposite. And I feel quite confident in saying that, yes, you are missing quite a but here. Pity.