Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Parmandur]

Yes, to both of these. The kind of "forced profundity and drama" is a major criticism I have with the series. So often the viewer is told that this is a profound or dramatic moment, you should be feeling something right now...without much to back it up. Perhaps the most egregious example being Nori's farewell with the Harfoots...it just went on and on, with hug after hug, and I personally just didn't feel it, because none of the characters were ever developed beyond very surface characterization. It is textbook amateurish writing: telling and not showing.

As for Gandalf, I actually don't mind how they handled him. I agree that it was a bit contrived, but it does make some sense that a Maia would incarnate into human form and be somewhat disoriented...maybe not for that long, and of course the "Is he Sauron?" bit was another contrived cheap mystery box that wasn't all that mysterious.

I basically felt every single emotional beat in the show. Every interaction between Durin and anyone gave me bug emotions, for instance

 

[Parmandur]

I agree that it has the skeleton of good storytelling, but the details aren't there. Galadriel's obsession with Sauron, and everyone else's seeming indifference, just don't feel authentic. One the one hand, why does nobody else take the threat seriously? On the other, why is Galadriel so singularly obsessed? A Cassandra-type character is such a cliche, and rather than really selling us the conflict, the writers have the elves behave like idiots.

It doesn't help that we have to endure the exact same scenario playing out in that human village where everyone is always covered in crap, and with equally flimsy justification. Galadriel and Blue-dress-woman aren't crying wolf: they have evidence, which other people have seen, that something is wrong. The reason they are ignored is to generate false drama.

Then there's the bit where Galadriel apparently decides not to return to Valinor, then goes anyway, then jumps off the ship (!?). It's completely contrived, written only to make dramatic action happen.

Because this show Iis set over 3000 years since anyone has heard tell that Sauron still lives. Galadriel has literally undying hate, but not everyone.

 

[Parmandur]

The last episode makes her "obsession" a lie.

Galadriel: "Sauron killed my brother so I'm going to obsessively search for him for centuries and make him pay!!!!!"

Also Galadriel: "What? You're Sauron. Sure, you can stay in Middle Earth and I won't kill you or mobilize the elves to move against you. Hell, I won't even tell them who you are. I'll just vaguely imply that you're bad by telling them not to trust you for reasons that I won't state. Have a great time organizing the downfall of the elves and Middle Earth. Don't trip on the last step. It's loose."

That's not the act of 1) one of the wisest elves to ever live, 2) someone obsessed with stopping Sauron, 3) an elf who values her people. It's 100% NOT Galadriel, Heck, it's not even consistent with the Galadriel the show gave us for the entire rest of the season.

You misread the end: she wants the rings made so that she can fight him, otherwise she has to sail to Valinor and let him run loose. Which is, you know, a mistake, as King Durin explained.

 

[Parmandur]

Wait they cannot use materia based on its source being Silmarillion? Wow!!! talk about hamstringing it.

Yeah, the Tolkien Eatare negotiated a veto for the show, and one of their main things was making sure that the show stuck only to information in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. It doesn't necessarily hurt the show as show, because that frees them up to focus on film fans. Amd they still sneak stuff in when they cam, like the visual cues to the First Kinslaying in the intro to episode one.

 

[Dausuul]

I'd place the Meneltarma at the location of the Josephine Seamount and Tol Eressëa at the location of Terceira in the Azores, some 700 miles distant. Though, keep in mind it was only the "farsighted" who could see the white tower from the summit.

It's an interesting optics question: On a flat earth, considering atmospheric haze/refraction and the limits of the human eye, how far away is it possible to identify "a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower?"

In the real world, we can see farther from a high place because it increases the distance to where the earth's curvature cuts off our view. That doesn't apply on a flat earth. But being in a very high place means that one's line of sight is passing through the upper atmosphere rather than the denser, hazier one at sea level. So we can assume that Tol Eressea was at the absolute limit of the best Numenorean eyes to resolve, and even a little bit of atmospheric interference was enough to make it lost in the haze. (And we can also assume that the Meneltarma was pretty damn tall.)

But what is the absolute limit of the Numenorean eye? Well, for us regular humans, Google tells me that human-scale objects (i.e., ~6 feet) are resolvable at a distance of ~2 miles. Let's give the tower of Tol Eressea a height of 200 feet. Then we get about 67 miles. Say the typical Numenorean has 20/10 vision (because Numenoreans are better at everything), and a "farsighted" Numenorean has 20/5 vision. That gets us to 267 miles.

267 miles seems pretty reasonable to me. But you could push it back farther, or pull it closer, by adjusting the height of the tower and/or the quality of Numenorean vision.

(More challenging to explain is the statement that Tol Eressea was also just visible for farsighted Numenoreans who sailed west to the limits of the Ban of the Valar. The Ban forbade Numenoreans to go west out of sight of their own coasts. But if you can see Tol Eressea from the Meneltarma, and the only difference between the coast and the Meneltarma is the density of the atmosphere between -- which shouldn't make that big a difference -- then someone pushing the limits of the Ban must be practically on top of Tol Eressea. At this point I'm inclined to invoke magic and say the Meneltarma granted heightened vision to anyone at the summit, because I don't see how to square these statements otherwise.)

 

[Garthanos]

But what is the absolute limit of the Numenorean eye? Well, for us regular humans, Google tells me that human-scale objects (i.e., ~6 feet) are resolvable at a distance of ~2 miles. Let's give the tower of Tol Eressea a height of 200 feet. Then we get about 67 miles. Say the typical Numenorean has 20/10 vision (because Numenoreans are better at everything), and a "farsighted" Numenorean has 20/5 vision. That gets us to 267 miles.

I had 20/10 vision myself in my youth and with lenses I still do (doc accidentally tested me for it just the other day and I said no problem that is quite readable ) ... LOL does that mean I have the eyes of a 200 year old Numenorean.

 

[Maxperson]

Galadriel has literally undying hate, but not everyone.

Until she just up and opted to let him go destroy the elves and Middle Earth without telling anyone or trying to stop him after the mental shindig. Her undying hate......wasn't.

 

[Maxperson]

It's an interesting optics question: On a flat earth, considering atmospheric haze/refraction and the limits of the human eye, how far away is it possible to identify "a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower?"

In the real world, we can see farther from a high place because it increases the distance to where the earth's curvature cuts off our view. That doesn't apply on a flat earth. But being in a very high place means that one's line of sight is passing through the upper atmosphere rather than the denser, hazier one at sea level. So we can assume that Tol Eressea was at the absolute limit of the best Numenorean eyes to resolve, and even a little bit of atmospheric interference was enough to make it lost in the haze. (And we can also assume that the Meneltarma was pretty damn tall.)

But what is the absolute limit of the Numenorean eye? Well, for us regular humans, Google tells me that human-scale objects (i.e., ~6 feet) are resolvable at a distance of ~2 miles. Let's give the tower of Tol Eressea a height of 200 feet. Then we get about 67 miles. Say the typical Numenorean has 20/10 vision (because Numenoreans are better at everything), and a "farsighted" Numenorean has 20/5 vision. That gets us to 267 miles.

267 miles seems pretty reasonable to me. But you could push it back farther, or pull it closer, by adjusting the height of the tower and/or the quality of Numenorean vision.

(More challenging to explain is the statement that Tol Eressea was also just visible for farsighted Numenoreans who sailed west to the limits of the Ban of the Valar. The Ban forbade Numenoreans to go west out of sight of their own coasts. But if you can see Tol Eressea from the Meneltarma, and the only difference between the coast and the Meneltarma is the density of the atmosphere between -- which shouldn't make that big a difference -- then someone pushing the limits of the Ban must be practically on top of Tol Eressea. At this point I'm inclined to invoke magic and say the Meneltarma granted heightened vision to anyone at the summit, because I don't see how to square these statements otherwise.)

I'm pretty sure that "farsight" was something akin to clairvoyance, not just better vision.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Because this show Iis set over 3000 years since anyone has heard tell that Sauron still lives. Galadriel has literally undying hate, but not everyone.

The show is set an indefinite length of time after Morgoth's defeat, because the show has played fast-and-loose with Tolkien's timeline, meaning you can't really assert anything categorical about it. Sauron starts building Barad-Dur in SA 1000; the rings are forged in 1500-1600; Elendil is born in 3119 etc. etc. etc.

One of the more frustrating things about exchanges with apologists for this show, is they'll latch on to one or two things which are both consistent with their position and lore-friendly, while ignoring vast tracts of lore-defying choices which the show has made. These few consistencies are then framed as especially significant in their faithfulness, illustrative of some deeper (and still, as yet, rather vague) "truths." Cherry-picking, while wearing 270-degree blinders.

I return again to the Sauron-Galadriel encounter contrivance, and its subsequent unfolding, because it strikes me as one of the most offensive in terms of the deeper themes in Tolkien's world.

Setting aside the implausibility of attempting to swim across an ocean, and the improbability of being rescued (twice by Sauron; once by Elendil), how in any way does this correspond to notions of providence as envisioned by Tolkien? Where providential intercessions occur, they are implicitly the action of Eru upon the world - Gandalf meeting Thorin in Bree; Bilbo finding the ring; Bombadil's intervention. How is a chance meeting with Sauron faithful to this deeper theme?

Sauron is afloat on a wrecked ship bobbing around on Belegaer. How did he get there? As a servant of the Great Enemy, what business does he have being here? - the oceans and rivers are Ulmo's domain; Melkor and his flunkies are terrified of them. The Enemy is powerless here, and fearful, because the Music of the Ainur runs clearest still within the waters of the World. How is Sauron's presence here faithful to the deeper themes?

The answers to these questions are fairly clear to me - bad writing setting up false drama; ignorance or dismissal of a wealth of ready-made, potent symbols and connections, in service of a mediocre, anodyne cinematic experience.

 

[Dausuul]

One of the more frustrating things about exchanges with apologists for this show, is they'll latch on to one or two things which are both consistent with their position and lore-friendly, while ignoring vast tracts of lore-defying choices which the show has made. These few consistencies are then framed as especially significant in their faithfulness, illustrative of some deeper (and still, as yet, rather vague) "truths." Cherry-picking, while wearing 270-degree blinders.

I return again to the Sauron-Galadriel encounter contrivance, and its subsequent unfolding, because it strikes me as one of the most offensive in terms of the deeper themes in Tolkien's world.

Setting aside the implausibility of attempting to swim across an ocean, and the improbability of being rescued (twice by Sauron; once by Elendil), how in any way does this correspond to notions of providence as envisioned by Tolkien? Where providential intercessions occur, they are implicitly the action of Eru upon the world - Gandalf meeting Thorin in Bree; Bilbo finding the ring; Bombadil's intervention. How is a chance meeting with Sauron faithful to this deeper theme?

Exactly. The "providential" coincidences in Tolkien always work in the service of good, because the whole point is to contrast the workings of Eru with those of Sauron.

Sauron seeks triumph through domination, and so his methods rely on coercion, either blatant (armies and monsters) or subtle (the mind-twisting power of the Ring). Eru is committed to upholding free will, and so does not force anyone to do anything; but he ensures that people are brought together at the right moments so that, if they so choose, good wins out. Thus, the hobbits -- physically the smallest and weakest, wielding no magic to speak of -- are given the opportunity to overthrow Sauron in all his might.

If you allow "providential" coincidence to advance the cause of evil, all that is knocked into a cocked hat, and you're just using "Eru works in mysterious ways" as a fig leaf to cover up lazy writing.