Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Maxperson]

See the part bolded above. I do have a problem with this very idea. Is there any hint, in either the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, that any lord of the elves is commanding their people to leave Middle Earth and head into the West? There are examples of hosts taking up the invitation to go to Valinor, as well as hosts that choose to stay in Middle Earth. When the Noldor who returned to Middle Earth were pardoned, there were hosts who took up that pardon and left, and others who stayed behind.

People may follow their leaders, but there never seems to be a lack of choice in the matter. Gil-galad trying to boot his auntie out of Middle Earth because she's not being a team player doesn't work for me.

That, too. The show completely wrecks just about everything about Tolkien's elves.

 

[billd91]

That, too. The show completely wrecks just about everything about Tolkien's elves.

I don't know about "completely wrecks just about everything" but I'd say it's handling of the elves is an area where the show is particularly weak.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't know about "completely wrecks just about everything" but I'd say it's handling of the elves is an area where the show is particularly weak.

I can't think of anything other than the pointy ears that fits Tolkien's elves. They don't act like them at all. Hell, they aren't even immortal anymore and have batteries that can run out if they don't get a mithril lithium recharge.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Well, Elrond lies (by omission) to Arwen to get her to leave in the film version of LotR (no idea if this is similar to the book) by not telling her about the child, and she was pretty peeved about it. Seems a very similar story beat to me.

"Because Peter Jackson inserted a kind-of similar scene for the sake of drama" doesn't really amount to a very robust defense of the characterization choices for Gil-galad and Galadriel.

That, too. The show completely wrecks just about everything about Tolkien's elves.

I think that, fundamentally, making any Elf a POV character is going to be problematic. As soon as you compromise their Other-ness, you lose something of their mystique and grandeur. I also think the Dwarves suffer the same problem, albeit to a lesser degree.

I would have much preferred to see human stories with original characters set across the whole of the Second Age, with more of a standalone episode format, with each season focusing on a different period during that time. The great Elven figures (Gil-galad, Elrond and Celebrian, Celebrimbor, Cirdan, Galadriel and Celeborn) could have remained recurring touchstones, but would have remained somewhat aloof, adding emphasis to their immortality and giving room to explore this contrast with the shorter-lived races.

I would have looked to successful formats such as Black Mirror and American Horror Story for inspiration, rather than try to have have a 5000-year old Wisest of All Elves embark on a Hero's Journey.

 

[billd91]

"Because Peter Jackson inserted a kind-of similar scene for the sake of drama" doesn't really amount to a very robust defense of the characterization choices for Gil-galad and Galadriel.

I think that, fundamentally, making any Elf a POV character is going to be problematic. As soon as you compromise their Other-ness, you lose something of their mystique and grandeur. I also think the Dwarves suffer the same problem, albeit to a lesser degree.

I would have much preferred to see human stories with original characters set across the whole of the Second Age, with more of a standalone episode format, with each season focusing on a different period during that time. The great Elven figures (Gil-galad, Elrond and Celebrian, Celebrimbor, Cirdan, Galadriel and Celeborn) could have remained recurring touchstones, but would have remained somewhat aloof, adding emphasis to their immortality and giving room to explore this contrast with the shorter-lived races.

With a title like Rings of Power, elves were always going to be a focus - Celebrimbor and his fellows at the very least. And that didn't have to be problematic in concept. The reason it is a problem, if you ask me, is all in the execution.

 

[Dausuul]

I think that, fundamentally, making any Elf a POV character is going to be problematic. As soon as you compromise their Other-ness, you lose something of their mystique and grandeur. I also think the Dwarves suffer the same problem, albeit to a lesser degree.

I agree to some extent, but I also think the challenge could be overcome if handled with skill. If "Sandman" can make a protagonist like Morpheus work, elves are surely not beyond reach.

It all really comes down to the writing. It still blows my mind that a couple of rookies got put in charge of the billion-dollar show. I feel like someone looked at Game of Thrones and said, "Clearly, hiring two novices is the way to go!" They should have looked at seasons 7-8 to see what happens when the novices no longer have a seasoned veteran backing them up.

 

[OB1]

See, I thought the jump as we saw it was stupid. Not the rebellion and idea behind it, but the method. She should have either refused outright or jumped ship shortly after leaving port.

Fair enough, and in a book, where you can read Galadriel's inner struggle with her decision, that would probably be a better choice. You could see her imagining being on the boat as it starts to cross over, listen to her thoughts on why she should or shouldn't go, etc. But in film, that doesn't work as well to dramatize the moment. Why is the Death Star moments away from destroying the rebel base in ANH? Why didn't Bilbo leave the ring on the mantle like he told Gandalf instead of wrestling with leaving it again, complete with dramatic close ups of him and the ring that goes on for well over a minute? Because those moments of drama need to be extended and pushed to the limit in a visual medium to get to the same catharsis as a few paragraphs of inner monologue can get from the written word. Galadriel could have rebelled before getting on the ship, but the emotion of her decision is better shown to the audience by placing it at that dramatic moment.

"Because Peter Jackson inserted a kind-of similar scene for the sake of drama" doesn't really amount to a very robust defense of the characterization choices for Gil-galad and Galadriel.

Note that I'm not trying to defend any book v show or Tolkien v showrunners issues here. I'm coming at this only from the films and show on their own merits, and was saying that the characterization of elves in RoP seem consistent with the elves of the LotR movies.

 

[Maxperson]

Fair enough, and in a book, where you can read Galadriel's inner struggle with her decision, that would probably be a better choice. You could see her imagining being on the boat as it starts to cross over, listen to her thoughts on why she should or shouldn't go, etc. But in film, that doesn't work as well to dramatize the moment.

All they needed to do was show her talking back to Gil-Galad telling him that she really didn't want to go and him insisting. Or she could have said, "I'm not sure I want to go. Though I yearn to see Aman again and the loved ones I left behind, there is still much I need to do here. Sauron is yet to be found." Or a number of other ways.

Now we know she is conflicted. You don't need internal monologues to show something like that.

Note that I'm not trying to defend any book v show or Tolkien v showrunners issues here. I'm coming at this only from the films and show on their own merits, and was saying that the characterization of elves in RoP seem consistent with the elves of the LotR movies.

I don't agree. Though not perfect, the LotR elves had much of the mystery, power and feel that Tolkien's elves had. There's none of that with these elves.

 

[Parmandur]

Would have been nice if she chose to fight in defiance of destiny instead of capitulating to Sauron without so much a post encounter whimper. Fighting in defiance of destiny is going to every elf who will listen to tell them that he was Sauron in disguise and she can prove it.

If she does that, then it's back to Valinor. Her perception and decision making is skewed here: she is making suboptimal choices based on her flaws, which people tend to do. That's not bad writing, that's realistic.

She doesn't do that, though. She loses and then lets him go off to destroy the world, rather than trusting her own strength(which she just found out in no uncertain terms wasn't enough).

She doesn't him go: she could not stop him at this time. Which is why she decides thst she needs a Magic ring...which will have bad consequences, classic Noldor style.

That's not what would happen if she told them.

If she tells them, Project Ring gets shut down and Gil Galad orders a full retreat. If the rings are forged, then she can stay and fight. She modifies the ring plan, but her intention is clearly to prevent the retreat to the West that King Durin wisely foresees (note that it is established in the show that Komg Durin has had prophetic foresight!) will lead to the best result. The climax here is a.major tragedy that sets up Sauron's rise to further power. She is caught in a tragic web of repeating toxic behavior. And yes, making Galadriel the hub.of the Noldor behavior is a departure from Tolkien's Marian version of the character...but it is rooted in it, since she has a moment of overcoming the temptation to ultimate power, which is clearly the origin for the arc set up for this whole series. But the Season ends in a failure: she makes the mistake of using the Devil's power to.figjt the Devil.

 

[Parmandur]

I can't think of any other instance of Galadriel behaving in a blatantly suicidal manner to avoid going in to the West. So it doesn't seem particularly in character to me.

Within the show it bookends the whole Seaspn. And within Tolkien's own writing, something was preventing Galadriel from beingg able to pass into.the West until the moment when Frodo offers her the One Ring. This whole Season is basically an extended  midrash on that plot thread.

I don't think any message in Tolkien is to trust in divine grace and providence to deliver you from your problems. I think part of the expectation is that you do the best you can and if you receive grace, that can put you over the top, but if you actively pursue evil deeds, you're not likely to receive it at all (see Frodo vs Gollum). If everyone just sat around not exerting their own strength and waited for divine grace to deliver them, they'd have been under Sauron's thumb long ago.

You are confusing trusting in Providence with Quietism. While Tolkien was not a Quitest, the Silmirillion makes it clear that the entire project of following Morgoth to ME was a mistake that could have been avoided: if the Noldor had embraces Hipe instead of...all of that...something better would have happened. The Silmirillion is a litany of terrible consequences to bone headed decisions made in spite of wise council. Season 1 sets this Series up to be much the same. Of the 6 societies introduced in Season 1, 2 already experienced total destruction...and all the other 4 will suffer the same fate by the end of Season 5. And all because of the tragic decisions of the Good Guys.

Which, ultimately, keeps bringing us back to one of my primary criticisms of the handling of Galadriel. Are we writing Galadriel? Or are we writing Fëanor? Because Galadriel knows the wages of obsessive vendetta pursuit. Or at least, she should if they were doing a better job of writing for her character.

They are writing show Galadriel, not Tolkien's Galadriel. Their version of Galadriel is being made the embodiment of all the vices and virtues of the Noldor from within Tolkien's work, however, and the overall themes of Tolkien are hence reinforced.