D&D 5E RIP alignment

[HJFudge]

This seems unfortunate.

Note: I haven't used alignment for a long long time now, but lots of people did and lots of people enjoyed it.

Seems a shame to just drop it when if you wanted to, your table could just easily ignore it. Much easier to ignore a rule you do not like than it is to write a rule that does not exist (in most cases).

 

[Flamestrike]

Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life.

So they can expressly choose not to be Evil, and to instead be and do Good.

Jeeze, where was that paragraph when I needed it a year ago when I was debating the existence of Good aligned Orcs in 5E with @Helldritch

 

[overgeeked]

This seems unfortunate.

Note: I haven't used alignment for a long long time now, but lots of people did and lots of people enjoyed it.

Seems a shame to just drop it when if you wanted to, your table could just easily ignore it. Much easier to ignore a rule you do not like than it is to write a rule that does not exist (in most cases).

Except there’s literally 10 different editions of brand name D&D that use alignment and who knows how many knockoffs that also use alignment. It’s also fairly well established in most gamer minds. It them dropping it from new product stat blocks won’t erase it from existence. Anyone who wants to use it is clearly free to do so.

 

[Gradine]

Oh no, now all we have to rely on for role-playing NPCs is personality traits and goals and behaviors and...



Good riddance, honestly.

 

[overgeeked]

So they can expressly choose not to be Evil, and to instead be and do Good.

Jeeze, where was that paragraph when I needed it a year ago when I was debating the existence of Good aligned Orcs in 5E with @Helldritch

But it still explicitly states that orcs are evil. And born that way. Any orc who goes against its nature will fight against their very nature for their entire life. That’s your basic racist argument in a nutshell. “They can’t help it. They’re just born evil. There might be a few good ones. But they’re just fighting against who they’re born to be.”

Alignment can die in a fire. When broadly applied to entire races it’s explicitly racist. And when those fantasy races are coded with real-world racist tropes...yeah, alignment can die in a fire.

 

[HJFudge]

Except there’s literally 10 different editions of brand name D&D that use alignment and who knows how many knockoffs that also use alignment. It’s also fairly well established in most gamer minds. It them dropping it from new product stat blocks won’t erase it from existence. Anyone who wants to use it is clearly free to do so.

Certainly they are. Still, many folks want it to remain and enjoy it. I think there is a slight fetishizing of 'official content' here, mind you, but I try to follow the rule of "Just because I dont care doesn't mean no one cares" and I try to empathize with viewpoints I may disagree with.

In the case of alignment, it literally has 0 effect on me so it is not a case of agree/disagree. Just sad to see a thing some people enjoyed lost from the current game because some folks hated it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I have less problem with sex based (not gender based) stat mods than I do with racial ones.

Sex is a biological characteristic (as opposed to gender, which is a social construct). Sexual dimorphism is a real thing. This is why we don't do combined sports, and break them down into male and female competitions.

Note I distinguish between sex and gender. Being born with a biological sex, doesn't make one the identical gender. Those two things are separate.

Race OTOH, is an entirely social construct (often with arbitrary biological traits attached at random via social agreement in an ad-hoc manner).

Yeah, I misspoke there. I should have said the arguments for and against species based ASIs and sex baded ASIs are practically identical. Chalk it up to too-casual use of the language.

That said, I really don't see the point in any of them if they get in the way of a person creating a character protagonist they want to play in a game (you want to play a really strong woman or halfling able to bench 400kgs+? Go nuts.)

I also see a massive problem in ability mods for gender/sex and race/ethnicity when those 'modifiers' represent bias and sexism/ racism (dark skinned races/ ethnic groups getting penalties to Intelligence, Women getting bonuses to Charisma or Empathy etc), and the implications contained therein, and as such I prefer it when they dont exist at all.

Agreed!

 

[Flamestrike]

But it still explicitly states that orcs are evil. And born that way.

Born with a tendency to be evil. Not born evil. It's an important distinction.

Alignment can die in a fire. When broadly applied to entire races it’s explicitly racist. .

I agree to a point, but 'races' in DnD differ from 'races' in real world terminology.

DnD 'races' are entirely different species, and species is not a social construction. Homo sapien 'races' OTOH are ethnic groups, and they are socially constructed (often with entirely arbitrary and fluctuating biological traits haphazardly attached via social agreement).

It's not racist to say 'Grizzly bears are stronger than Humans' nor would it be racist to say 'Orcs are stronger than humans'.

That distinction is lost on a lot of people though, and we do marked this game for kids, so I dont see what is to be gained really, and I see a lot to be lost.

I also do agree the 'racial' stereotypes implicit in DnD races are often plain to see (and occasionally they even explicitly cross the line into full on racism with things like Birthright 2E giving different human ethnicities Stat mods, and the depiction of the Vistani even recently).

Like I said, I agree it's better to do away with them (I prefer the Custom Lineage backgrounds myself, and just let the player tell me what they are).

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, I misspoke there. I should have said the arguments for and against species based ASIs and sex baded ASIs are practically identical. Chalk it up to too-casual use of the language.

Yeah, the problematic use of the term 'race' (both in game, and IRL) sucks.

It should really be 'Species' in game (or the like) to represent a discrete biological grouping like Orcs or Elves, and then that is broken down into socially constructed ethnic groups (Orogs, Grey Orcs, Drow, Wood Elves etc) from there.

 

[overgeeked]

Born with a tendency to be evil. Not born evil. It's an important distinction.

It’s a distinction that doesn’t make a difference.