D&D 5E Ritual expansion

overgeeked · Mar 7, 2021

6ENow! said:
But I see your point. To address this we went a different route. We removed the "one list" restriction from ritual caster. A ritual caster can add any spell with the ritual tag to their ritual spell book (Cleric, Wizard, whatever...). So, instead of having maybe 10-20 spells available, the PC can (if they find them) have over 30 spells.

Yeah, that would be step two. Add the ritual tag to longer casting time spells and remove the restriction on class-based rituals. I’d keep the casting ability based on the list the ritual actually comes from, though. So if you get a warlock ritual, it’s CHA, for example.

DND_Reborn · Mar 7, 2021

overgeeked said:
Yeah, that would be step two. Add the ritual tag to longer casting time spells and remove the restriction on class-based rituals. I’d keep the casting ability based on the list the ritual actually comes from, though. So if you get a warlock ritual, it’s CHA, for example.

Yes, we keep the spellcasting ability modifier based on the spell list as well. But, IIRC, no ritual actually needed them so it became immaterial.

Arvok · Mar 7, 2021

The biggest problem I see with this is that a Warlock with the Pact of the Tome and Book of Shadows invocation would have access to all kinds of spells (see 6ENow!'s chart above). I have a Tome/Book of Shadows warlock and it makes my DM's life tough RAW. With this change, he would probably just kill my character out of spite.

Greenstone.Walker · Mar 7, 2021

overgeeked said:
…broken or class defining that would suddenly be open to more people. Anyone have constructive criticism or advice on how to implement this?

Do you consider lots of undead to be broken?

With this idea, a caster can spend half a day casting and have 65 zombies under their control. Three hours each day will maintain control over all of them.

overgeeked · Mar 8, 2021

Greenstone.Walker said:
Do you consider lots of undead to be broken?

With this idea, a caster can spend half a day casting and have 65 zombies under their control. Three hours each day will maintain control over all of them.

They can only do that if they have all the required components. Digging up 65 bodies from a cemetery isn't going to go unnoticed. Casting into a grave and hoping the animated undead can claw their way out is not a great option. I'm not much for white room theorycrafting. Something that is theoretically possible doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen in game. That's also a lot of time the caster can be interrupted. And a lot of really pissed off families, friends, and loved ones to deal with.

cbwjm · Mar 8, 2021

overgeeked said:
They can only do that if they have all the required components. Digging up 65 bodies from a cemetery isn't going to go unnoticed. Casting into a grave and hoping the animated undead can claw their way out is not a great option. I'm not much for white room theorycrafting. Something that is theoretically possible doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen in game. That's also a lot of time the caster can be interrupted. And a lot of really pissed off families, friends, and loved ones to deal with.

Not only that, but the heroes arriving in the nick of time to disrupt a ritual which is going to animate the dead is great for story telling. Of course, that extra short rest might mean that they arrive slightly too late and now have to fight a horde of zombies and skeletons which is also cool.

Blue · Mar 8, 2021

Jacob Lewis said:
There are some important differences in the way rituals were designed between 4e and 5e.

In 4e, rituals were completely different and separated from other "spells" (i.e. powers). So rituals in 4e didn't appear on the list if combat-oriented powers, and vice versa. They were like an add-on for those characters who had this class feature, or took the appropriate feat. Note that rituals in 4e were classified into arcane, divine, and nature (and another I cannot recall at the moment) so classes not associated with a particular power could not access those rituals that would seem inappropriate.

I think you've pointed out a vital difference. Porting this into 5e, the slot cost and the spells known/prepared opportunity cost of 4e-style rituals were not taken from the same pool of resources as combat, so we had different pillars having their own parts. That said, it did throttle them with expensive, consumed material components (to use 5e parlance), which doesn't translate as directly to a game without strong wealth-per-level guidelines.

Horwath · Mar 8, 2021

@6ENow! nice list,

But maybe all spells could have ritual casting.

Fireball; 1 minute casting? Why not? If you cannot interrupt a spellcaster in 10 rounds while he is standing in one spot and chanting, getting 8d6 damage your way is the least of your problems...

But any healing/adventuring spells should have 1hr casting time atleast. one cast of healing extra during short rest is no big deal and giving someone climbing/flying/swimming/burrowing speed during short rest seems like a good interpretation of on-the-run preparation for next obstacle.

DND_Reborn · Mar 8, 2021

Horwath said:
@6ENow! nice list,

Thanks.

Horwath said:
But maybe all spells could have ritual casting.

We given that feature to wizards only via their spellbooks:

6ENow! said:
Second, I added a feature to Wizards in particular called Spellbook Rituals. It allows Wizards to cast spells "directly from their spellbook" (using it as a spellcasting focus) as rituals even if they don't have the ritual tag. But the casting time is 10 minutes PER spell level of the spell and you can't upcast them, just the base level.

In response to every other class now having complete access to their entire spell list daily (thanks to Tasha

). shrug

But, the purpose of spell slots is to limit how much magic a PC has access during the day and force them to make decisions about what is important. Allowing full ritual spells goes against that because as we all know time outside of combat isn't usually a big factor.