[RL History] Why is the longbow better than the shortbow?

[Gunter]

In D&D (and every other game I've seen), longbows do more damage than shortbows. Yet, I'm wondering if this is accurate and, if so, why. For example, does a longbow with an 80 lb. pull impart more energy to the arrow than a composite shortbow with the same 80 lb. pull? They are firing the same arrows.

I know (or rather, I think I know) that the mongols kicked some serious euro-butt in the 1200s, centuries before the longbow achieved prominence. Where these weapons ever used concurrently?


Aaron (clueless)

The power of the longbow is penetration and that it used 3ft long arrows called clothyards. The logbow had the penetration of a crossbow and could punch through the heavyest of armors. They were very hard to draw and have about a 100lb pull and stood about 5-6 ft tall.

The mongo bows were not as penetrating but were designed to use on horsback so that either with a melee weapon or a bow the rider was deadly.

Neither is inherantly better but for pure puch the lonbow wins and for versitility the mongol recurve wins.

I hope this helps.

 

[Zander]

FYI longbows were invented and mainly used by the English, not the Welsh. Although the Welsh are thought to have used them too, modern students of arms and armour attribute them to the English. The idea that the longbow was originally a Welsh weapon is a historiological error.

 

[Wilphe]

The range statement was in direct responce to a claim that the english longbow significantly outranged the mongol comp. shortbow.

At this point I'm going to start to study the battles of the crusades. I hopefully will find be able to find a battle where longbows and turkish shortbow were both used. Anyone?

Aaron

Unlikely I think, the most coverage for English involvement in the Crusades is around Richard I, which is c1190.
The English don't become famous for longbow useage until a good 150-200 years later by which time the crusaders have been thrown out of the Middle East.

In addition, yew self bows detioraite markedly in performance in heat above about 25 degrees C, a fact which English forces intervening in Spain found out to their discomfort. This alone makes it unlikely that they would have been used much in the Middle East anyway.

 

[Pbartender]

FYI longbows were invented and mainly used by the English, not the Welsh. Although the Welsh are thought to have used them too, modern students of arms and armour attribute them to the English. The idea that the longbow was originally a Welsh weapon is a historiological error.

Welsh... English... Same difference.

In addition, yew self bows detioraite markedly in performance in heat above about 25 degrees C, a fact which English forces intervening in Spain found out to their discomfort. This alone makes it unlikely that they would have been used much in the Middle East anyway.

That makes me wonder whether it's really a heat problem... or a humidity problem. Very high or very low humidity would affect the springiness of the wood, and would change the fit of the bow and string as the length of both the string and bow varied slightly.

That's precisely why archer were so useless in the rain... The damp strings and fletching greatly reduced the power, range and accuracy of a bow.

 

[Wilphe]

The archers on the Mary Rose were probably the very best there was however, it was the flag ship after all. And it comes right at the tail end of the longbow as a viable weapon.

That Archery practice on sundays was made compulsory is a well known fact. Whether that law was ever enforced is another matter (it was enacted at a time of invasion scare along with a ban on football, and we all know how THAT has turned out).
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Mighty non-composite longbows?


Possibley, real life stops at STR 18, possibely with a few stat advances you might get to 20 or so. But those people are exceptional in a world of 9s,10s, 11s & 12s. In D&D you get elite PCs with high STR, races which are stronger and then magic bonuses on top of that - there is a niche for really powerful bows that doesn't exist in real life.

And, if we are talking about Europe here, a self longbow is a cheap weapon intended for peasent levies. For Mongols, Huns and their ilk the bow is their primary weapon, and as a hunting weapon, a means of subsistence. It then becomes worth the effort and expense of making it a very good bow and taking months to make.

Whether a yew long bow can be made stronger without building it out of something other than yew and ceasing to be a longbow is another matter.

 

[jester47]

There are plenty of credible scholarly papers on the net that explain Agincourt, Mongols, and the Longbow. Not all at once, but I find them slightly better than the heresay found on this thread. Not being antagonistic, just think that they are far more imformative. Googling things like "english longbow" "Mongol tactics" "Agincourt" will get you lots of info.

Aaron.

 

[Wilphe]

But then whither the thrill of debate and the white hot heat of argument?

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Stupid cookies.

 

[Pbartender]

There are plenty of credible scholarly papers on the net that explain Agincourt, Mongols, and the Longbow. Not all at once, but I find them slightly better than the heresay found on this thread. Not being antagonistic, just think that they are far more imformative. Googling things like "english longbow" "Mongol tactics" "Agincourt" will get you lots of info.

Aaron.

This site, and this site, for example, where I got most of my heresay from.

 

[S'mon]

This site,

"No more than 6000 soldiers in the service of the English king faced about 50,000 French soldiers"

Hmm - I've never seen a figure as high as 50,000 for the French army - indeed if you were to believe _French_ historians, the English outnumbered the French at Agincourt - but I think we can discount them.
I've seen a figure of 25,000 for the French army before (vs 4000-6000 English), and that may still be a bit on the high side, but the French forces were bulked out with useless peasant levies - useless because even if they wanted to fight bravely, they wouldn't dare since their lords would punish them for showing up the knights! For similar reasons the French Genoese crossbowmen contingent of professional mercenaries was largely wasted, according to stories some were ridden down by the French knights in their eagerness to get at the English.