Robbing rogues

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree, law of averages. Disagree on the implementation. If he's a decent level, and really maxed all the appropriate skills, and conducts his thefts intelligently (perhaps waiting for some major event when most folks have gone out for the night?), then sure, let himhave some glory. If such a skilled indivdual fails every time he tries a robbery, the player should rightly feel angry. The key here is, best not to press your luck. Maybe one well-executed night hits the jackpot, but if he tries to make this into a running stint, his fortunes WILL crumble. Once a crime wave officially hits a region, it becomes much more stringently patrolled by guards. If he's foolish enough to keep trying, take the kiddie gloves off. And not just with the authorities. I doubt the local thieving organizations will appreciate his freelancing and how it affects their profits / troubles with crackdowns by the law, either. If you want to throw things like magical golems, sure. Just...it shouldn't be a common occurance. If anything, it'd be traps, which the Rogue class is conveniently well equipped to handle. ^_^

 

[Allegro]

Not all locks are to keep people out.

William Nile, the deranged and only son of the noble house Nile, is quietly being locked up for his and the towns safety. During Williams, youth he pursued autocratic whims but settled down in his late teens into a career in the military. William was an excellent and competent warrior and led many successful campaigns against the orc tribes. After mis-judging the strength of a particular band of orcs his unit was destroyed and he was captured and tortured. The orcs were unrelenting brutal and eventually William cracked. William went insane, the orcs kept him around as a beast chained up and would have him fight wild animals and other humans for their amusement. Some years later, the orcs themselves were destroyed and the captain recognized William and brought him back to the family secretly. William had changed from the noble warrior to a beast who only thinks of killing and survival. The family originally had hoped to cure him, but all magical and mundane cures have failed to this point. They are currently, scheming to marry him and produce an heir by any means necessary.

William’s room is heavily fortified, soundproofed and locked. If freed, William will attack and howl. Guards will arrive a couple minutes later at the sound. William will bolt into the streets and will proceed to hunt and kill citizens. William is insane, smart, and strong. He has levels of aristocrat, fighter, and barbarian. The Nile family is rich and desperate to recover William secretly.

 

[Darklone]

Don't forget the dogs. Good guard dogs can easily catch most thieves.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Lots of good suggestions upthread to keeping your player turning from adventure to a life of crime, but the four I would use are:

> The Zhentarim don't like the attention the crimes bring

> The Local thieves guild, who get protection money from the nobles in question, are very against the Rogue poaching in thier territory

> The valuables he gathers are art objects, silver platters, and exotic wall hangings.. all of which need to be sold somewhere. Preferably through a fence..who tends to be connected to above mentioned Guild

> Dogs. Construct Dogs if the noble is rich enough. Its hard to hide from Scent.


But, also let him shine at least once. He is, after all, playing in character. {IMHO, not very well if he hasn't thought of the above 4 items....}

 

[Corsair]

> The valuables he gathers are art objects, silver platters, and exotic wall hangings.. all of which need to be sold somewhere. Preferably through a fence..who tends to be connected to above mentioned Guild

This is key. Think about it, how much cash do you have in your home, compared to how much your TV, computer, xbox, etc is worth. Same thing applies. He'll be mostly stealing THINGS, not cash. He has to fence it somewhere. This connects to the other things people mention as well. When people realize there is a burglar on the loose after a couple robberies, the local fence will be cracked down on hard. Unless your rogue also has excellent face skills or a good disguise, someone will be on to him quick.

Nobles pooling their resources can hire other PC classed folks, or pressure the government, or as already mentioned, other established criminal organizations could get involved.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Here's a better question. Who lives in the noble district? I'll assume Forgotten Realms since you mentioned the Zhentarim.

My memory of the Forgotten Realms suggests that the noble district in a typical city is the province of:
1. Merchants. Such merchants would typically be members of a trading coster. They have reasonable amounts of cash and jewelery but the bulk of their wealth is invested in trade goods. The most valuable thing that a thief could actually steal is probably their records and correspondence, but those will probably be kept in a locked (possibly arcane locked--it's not very expensive and is fairly low level and thus reasonably available in the Realms) secret compartment somewhere. Anyone stealing such records and/or correspondence would need to find a buyer beyond simply a local fence--bandits or rival merchants would be the ones to pay for them. On the other hand, dealing with either is dangerous because both groups are unscrupulous (the rival merchant is, after all, purchasing trade secrets or business plans for nefarious purposes; scrupulous merchants probably wouldn't do that). And once the thief has handed over the documents, he is a liability (witness) rather than an asset.

2. Old money. There are fair numbers of old money type people in the realms. Some of these are useless fops living off the earnings of their ancestors. Others are heavily involved in commerce or politics. The useless fops are the most distinct from other classes because their extravagant lifestyle demands that they have significant assets in jewelry, expensive clothes, and cash on hand. On the other hand, the prodigal and his money are soon parted so the thief could easily discover that the only clothes and money the fop owns are on his person and the only thing in the impressive house is a stack of unpaid bills.

3. Leaders of various groups. The high priest of Helm, captain of the guard, and the head of the local thieves guild may well live in the noble quarter. It's at least my impression that, in the Forgotten Realms, those kind of positions often come with considerable personal power. Lord Morgrym of Shadowdale, for instance, is a fairly formiddable individual in his own right. These kinds of residences would be well designed (to minimize the possibilities of stealth) an well guarded--probably by dogs and guardsmen. And the personal capabilities of such individuals should not be overlooked. Even the safe of a mid level priest in the forgotten realms is probably protected by a glyph of warding.

4. Retired adventurers. They're all over the place in the Realms. Just becaue he's living in the noble's district and his 2000 gp is the +1 longbow hanging over the mantlepiece doesn't mean that your 7th level rogue wants to tangle with the retired 8th level ranger, his faithful dog (animal companion), and his wife.

5. Wizards. A lot of wizards live in mansions just like anyone else who is wealthy, but my take on the Realms is that wizards are probably the most paranoid of all. Who knows but that a wizard's mansion is not patrolled by bound devils (bearded devils are great for this kind of thing since they are weak enough to be bullied, lawful enough to keep their word, and dumb enough that they may not be able to figure out a loophole in the contract).

Then, as for the practicality of it
1. Don't assume that guards all suck. Your ordinary human 1st level warrior guard could easily have 2 ranks of spot or listen cross class, the alertness feat, and a 12 wisdom for a total of +5 to spot and listen and could easily carry a tanglefoot bag or bolas to try to take down an escaping thief (+1 or +2 vs touch AC is very doable). A higher class of guard (more competent but still quite affordable in the noble district) might be a 2nd level expert with 5 ranks in spot and listen, alertness, and a 12 wisdom. That's +8 to spot and listen.

Then consider the scenario. Assuming that a guard is in line of sight at all times but the rogue has cover and can attempt to hide, he'll probably need to climb the wall (hide check 1), sneak across the lawn (hide check 2), pick the lock (which will be a good lock at the minimum so several more rounds--hide checks 3-7), sneak into the building and steal stuff (hide checks 8-12 for a quick once over or assuming that he will be out of line of sight for most of the interior looting which may not be a good assumption), sneak out (hide check 13), cross the lawn (hide check 14), climb the wall (hide check 15) and hoof it. If the guard needs a 20 to spot the rogue on every one of those rounds, there's still a 59% chance that the rogue is spotted before he leaves. If the guard would spot the rogue on a 19 as well, it goes up to an 81% chance that the guard will spot the rogue before all is through. Add in that the guard also has a chance to hear the rogue (move silently) and, unless the rogue is 10+ points better than the guards and is taking ten or 19+ points better than the guards, the rogue will probably be noticed.

Then there is the possibility of revenge. People who can afford to live in the noble's district can hire good investigators. And ruthless people who live in the noble's district might take pleasure in making the rogue's demise as slow and painful as possible.

 

[azhrei_fje]

And it's common for nobles to have more interesting ways to protect their valuables. For example, maybe there's a guard in the hallway or even in the room with the valuables, but I would expect flour to be coating the window sill. It would be amusing for a very wealthy merchant to have sovereign glue there instead! Cursed items are always a good idea, especially if they're psionic instead of magical (and your game is that psionics and magic are not transparent). In any case, some kind of scrying or locate object will likely find the rogue, if used soon after the robbery...

 

[Dragonwriter]

You could allow the player to attempt it, then spring a nasty surprise on them. The golem suggestion would work well for that, though I prefer guards with hounds or bound creatures with Scent.

You could have him think he's robbing the house of a "foppish" noble, except the noble is only a layabout because he did some stuff earlier in his life, and now likes spending his family's money (Sor or Wiz is nice for nasty surprises... Wiz especially). he could protect a vault or some such thing with a(n extended) Faithful Hound. Or, yeah, <i> alarm</i> if you want to be simple. Gargoyles with levels in Ranger or maybe Barbarian would work well too i they invest points in Spot and Listen. Gargoyle Rangers work very well, since they could do Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently quite easily.

Perhaps a nicely made summoning trap that triggers when the rogue opens the door, but is inaccessible from the side the rogue is on, stopping a Disable Device attempt and giving the rogue a reason to run. Or just have some nasty things in there that need no food/sleep. Undead work well for that - ghasts can be VERY vicious, even at 7th-level if they're in groups.

And yes, revenge is always a big thing. Even a "nice" noble doesn't like being robbed, and if the police/lawmen can't do anything, they may do something themselves... like hiring a justiciar (PrC from Complete Warrior, bounty hunter that is good at capturing fugitives rather than killing them). And if said noble isn't a good person, hiring more nasty things could be up their alley... like maybe a pact with devils to capture the thief and either bring them back or just get the stuff and bring it back and do what they want to the thief.

 

[calighis]

If he is the biggest fish in the pond then he deserves to swim unmolested... at least for awhile.

The cheapest way for the nobles to deal with this is to simply bluff. Spread rumors of the imminent arrival of a big name wizard who specializes in object location and all kinds of scrying. Stage a fake arrival for him complete with reception. Guarantee throughout the streets that if this thief steals again he is all but assured to get caught.

 

[roguerouge]

How much time is this going to take away from the other players? I'd have him give you his plan for robbing these houses. Then I'd do a cut scene of successes (however many you like). Then I'd zoom in on the one that went wrong right after the point it went wrong: alarm spell, Zhentarim agent, experts, guard dogs, golem, mutant twin imprisoned in the attic, whatever.

The player has his successes. You make your point that it's not automatic. And the exercise ends in 20 minutes or less, which prevents the other players from being bored.