Horwath
Legend
sometimes a rogue just wants to be a thief and crack a safe for jewelry in peace and quiet.
D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
…and giving a potion to an unconscious friend.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Sometimes, sure. But it should be the exception not the rule.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Rogues have been nerfed, and I don't know why. I don't know anyone who was saying Rogues were overpowered.
1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.
2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.
3) You no longer have Steady Aim as an option here, though it was obviously a patch option from Tasha's to grant advantage more often because Rogues were intended to sneak attack most of the time. They basically moved it to 13th level with Subtle Strikes (Pack Tactics by a different name) as the means of reliably getting advantage, which is too late to be used for most rogues in play.
4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?
5) Can no longer get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.
6) Reliable Talent now no longer helps with things like initiative If you had proficiency added to it), grapple escapes, or counterspell checks or similar checks as it's now specific to a skill or tool check and not an ability check, and they already had made sure it wouldn't help with grapple checks with grapple rules changes.
7) Longsword is no longer part of their proficiencies.
I have not reviewed the Thief enough yet, other than to note Fast Hands no longer works with a Healer's Kit, which is a nerf.
They do get some buffs:
A) Two weapon fighting rules help them, sometimes quite a bit as I believe they can now get two attacks and still cunning action, which is important.
B) I think they get subclass features earlier than they used to (though I have not focused much on the subclass yet)
C) I think they got Whip proficiency added though it being a finesse weapon (I am not sure)?
D) I do like that they get Pack Tactics at 13th level - it just doesn't make up for sort of having that with Steady Hands before at a much lower level.
1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.
2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.
3) You no longer have Steady Aim as an option here, though it was obviously a patch option from Tasha's to grant advantage more often because Rogues were intended to sneak attack most of the time. They basically moved it to 13th level with Subtle Strikes (Pack Tactics by a different name) as the means of reliably getting advantage, which is too late to be used for most rogues in play.
4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?
5) Can no longer get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.
6) Reliable Talent now no longer helps with things like initiative If you had proficiency added to it), grapple escapes, or counterspell checks or similar checks as it's now specific to a skill or tool check and not an ability check, and they already had made sure it wouldn't help with grapple checks with grapple rules changes.
7) Longsword is no longer part of their proficiencies.
I have not reviewed the Thief enough yet, other than to note Fast Hands no longer works with a Healer's Kit, which is a nerf.
They do get some buffs:
A) Two weapon fighting rules help them, sometimes quite a bit as I believe they can now get two attacks and still cunning action, which is important.
B) I think they get subclass features earlier than they used to (though I have not focused much on the subclass yet)
C) I think they got Whip proficiency added though it being a finesse weapon (I am not sure)?
D) I do like that they get Pack Tactics at 13th level - it just doesn't make up for sort of having that with Steady Hands before at a much lower level.
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fluffybunbunkittens
Hero
Readied action gets weird, when you cannot sneak attack out of hiding when they pass your hiding place...
Good point about whip. You could whip with reach, then TWF with a thrown dagger. Huh.
Good point about whip. You could whip with reach, then TWF with a thrown dagger. Huh.
I think "Readied" should allow the full action.
These two are the big nerfs I think are worth commenting on in the feedback. The others worry me less.
I am wondering where you see your #2? I missed it
DeviousQuail
Hero
Point 4 and B are related. Evasion coming later seems to be the tradeoff for moving their subclass features to lower levels. They had to backfill some of those vacated levels. I prefer the change because it was so weird having to wait until level 9 for a second subclass feature.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Most obvious thing: nerf 1 is mostly for 5% of people. Those who have system mastery AND are willing to optimize their characters.
Sneak attack impossible on an opportunity attack or reaction is the only thing that hurts a bit, but If think the Idea of cutting off specific builds is good.
Levistus's_Leviathan
5e Freelancer
We'll have to wait and see the changes to Readied Action. It probably won't have changed substantially enough to allow Sneak Attack with Readied Actions, but it might (i.e. if they change Readied Action to a "delay your entire turn" feature).
Yes, you can. Not only can you add sneak attack damage on a critical hit, but the sneak attack damage is doubled just like it was in the 2014 PHB.
Steadied Aim might be an option still, just not printed in this book. It's a bit unclear, but I see no reason to say that it's not an option anymore.
Also, Subtle Strikes is not like Steady Aim in the slightest. It gives you advantage on the attack roll if you already have an ally within 5 feet of the enemy (which means you can still Sneak Attack if you would have had disadvantage on the Attack Roll). That's more like Flanking than Steady Aim.
Because you get a subclass feature at level 6, which moves your additional Expertise from level 6 to level 7, which moves Evasion to level 9 (they couldn't have moved it to level 8, because that's when you get a feat). This certainly nerfs some of the Rogue, but I think it's an overall buff due to the subclass feature coming earlier (we'll have to see all of the subclasses in order to say for sure).
2014's Reliable Talent would have only worked for Initiative if you were a Harengon.
That's not really a nerf. Longswords are practically useless for Rogues. They're not finesse or ranged weapons, so Rogues can't Sneak Attack with them. The only Longsword that Rogues can use effectively (the Sunblade) gives you proficiency in it if you have proficiency in Shortswords, which Rogues do have.
A) Yep. Huge buff for melee rogues.
B) Also a good buff. That was one of the few parts of the 2014 Rogue that I disliked. Waiting to get another subclass feature for 6 levels is painful.
C) Whips in the 2014 PHB are finesse, so this is a good buff if it stays that way. I always thought that Rogues should be the class that fills the Indiana Jones role.
Note: Thieves' Tools checks are now Sleight of Hand Checks. And, if you have proficiency in both Sleight of Hands and Thieves' Tools (which most Rogues will), then you have advantage and proficiency in all Thieves' Tools-based Sleight of Hand checks. That's another pretty significant buff.
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