D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion

[MarkB]

at level 13 you get Subtle Strikes giving you advantage when targeting a foe near an ally.

Which is nice, as it means you always have a chance to sneak attack an enemy if one of your allies is adjacent to them, since this negates disadvantage if you would have had it.

 

[Mistwell]

These two are the big nerfs I think are worth commenting on in the feedback. The others worry me less.
I am wondering where you see your #2? I missed it

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I suspect that AoO will allow for an Attack action as a reaction instead of a single (low-key) attack.
For a while I've let martials use their full attack allotment on AoO and it made Disengaging and anti-AoO features much better. Rogues could already SA on AoO, Paladins could smite, caster could throw a spell with a feat etc, so having a high level fighter doing 4 attacks as an AoO once in a blue moon wasnt too bad.

 

[Mistwell]

Most obvious thing: nerf 1 is mostly for 5% of people. Those who have system mastery AND are willing to optimize their characters.

It's really not. It happened a lot more if you optimized, but it happened for all rogues with readied actions. There are some combats where readied actions are the only way to get an attack off, and if Rogues can't get their sneak attacks on those battles it will be a meaningful drop in their sense of effectiveness.

Rogues will now face the disconcerting set of circumstances where a foe is popping out from cover, shooting them with some special power, and popping back behind cover...while the Rogue cannot shoot back with their special power. Even if they have advantage. Even if they could have done that very thing if it were an attack taken on their initiative count instead of delaying their action to a different initiative count. How is a DM even supposed to explain how that's working?

Sneak attack impossible on an opportunity attack or reaction is the only thing that hurts a bit, but If think the Idea of cutting off specific builds is good.

But they didn't need to go this far. They could have allowed for it on readied actions, but not for other reactions. It would have been easy to do and the kind of exception-based rules they scatter throughout the rules already.

 

[Staffan]

Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?

I never saw this particular cheese. What I did see, however, was dissonant whispers being cast on a target adjacent to both the rogue and another melee combatant, leading to the target running off, and the rogue getting Sneak Attack on the opportunity attack. This felt awesome for everyone involved, and I'm sad to see it go.

 

[Mistwell]

We'll have to wait and see the changes to Readied Action. It probably won't have changed substantially enough to allow Sneak Attack with Readied Actions, but it might (i.e. if they change Readied Action to a "delay your entire turn" feature).

Yes, you can. Not only can you add sneak attack damage on a critical hit, but the sneak attack damage is doubled just like it was in the 2014 PHB.

Nope. Crawford already explained this in the videos. Crits will no longer include sneak attack damage, spell damage, smite damage, or any dice other then actual weapon dice. This is definitely a change coming with this edition. I don't even think they're going to playtest it - they've said this is a thing they are doing. But maybe I am wrong and they will playtest it and open it up to a survey.

Steadied Aim might be an option still, just not printed in this book. It's a bit unclear, but I see no reason to say that it's not an option anymore.

Also, Subtle Strikes is not like Steady Aim in the slightest. It gives you advantage on the attack roll if you already have an ally within 5 feet of the enemy (which means you can still Sneak Attack if you would have had disadvantage on the Attack Roll). That's more like Flanking than Steady Aim.

It's pack tactics. The effect is the same, is all I was saying. It's a way to get advantage most of the time.

Because you get a subclass feature at level 6, which moves your additional Expertise from level 6 to level 7, which moves Evasion to level 9 (they couldn't have moved it to level 8, because that's when you get a feat). This certainly nerfs some of the Rogue, but I think it's an overall buff due to the subclass feature coming earlier (we'll have to see all of the subclasses in order to say for sure).

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

2014's Reliable Talent would have only worked for Initiative if you were a Harengon.

That's right, sorry forgot about the proficiency bonus part. I have never gotten to 11th level with a rogue

That's not really a nerf. Longswords are practically useless for Rogues. They're not finesse or ranged weapons, so Rogues can't Sneak Attack with them. The only Longsword that Rogues can use effectively (the Sunblade) gives you proficiency in it if you have proficiency in Shortswords, which Rogues do have.

It's pretty minor. It's noteworthy just because of the high number of magical longswords found in published adventures. But I agree not very noteworthy, and whip makes a lot more sense of a rogue.

A) Yep. Huge buff for melee rogues.
B) Also a good buff. That was one of the few parts of the 2014 Rogue that I disliked. Waiting to get another subclass feature for 6 levels is painful.
C) Whips in the 2014 PHB are finesse, so this is a good buff if it stays that way. I always thought that Rogues should be the class that fills the Indiana Jones role.

Note: Thieves' Tools checks are now Sleight of Hand Checks. And, if you have proficiency in both Sleight of Hands and Thieves' Tools (which most Rogues will), then you have advantage and proficiency in all Thieves' Tools-based Sleight of Hand checks. That's another pretty significant buff.

Good one, thanks! I like that change.

 

[Mistwell]

I suspect that AoO will allow for an Attack action as a reaction instead of a single (low-key) attack.
For a while I've let martials use their full attack allotment on AoO and it made Disengaging and anti-AoO features much better. Rogues could already SA on AoO, Paladins could smite, caster could throw a spell with a feat etc, so having a high level fighter doing 4 attacks as an AoO once in a blue moon wasnt too bad.

That would help a lot but I have seen no hint of that upcoming. If so, it would do a lot to make me feel better about this change.

 

[Staffan]

As a lock picking "expert" myself, I can assure you, a youtube video and two paperclips will let you open a standard padlock in 20 minutes. Faster if you are lucky.
With a sport lockpick set you get it done in a few minutes or with some luck in 6 seconds.

It has taken me a while to understand 3e in that regard: if there is no time pressure, just allow the rogue to always take 20 and suddenly DCs work right out of the book without magic items and the rogue feels good and useful.

IRL, very few locks are absolute against someone who knows what they're doing. The point of a lock is not to provide an absolute barrier to opening a door, it is to provide a speed bump that will slow down a thief by a couple of minutes, thereby drastically increasing the chance that they're discovered. That, and to keep honest people honest.

 

[MarkB]

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

That was only in the first playtest package. In the current one they've reverted to the standard critical hit rules.

 

[Mistwell]

That was only in the first playtest package. In the current one they've reverted to the standard critical hit rules.

Only because they wanted to try a different variant on the inspiration rule, not because they're returning to that critical hit portion about it being only weapon damage. Seems pretty clear they plan to stick with that change.