D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion

[Kobold Stew]

What in the world? How is a buff to other classes a nerf for the rogue?!?!

Niche erosion.

Um, no. Not all classes get Expertise. Just the Rogue, Bard, and Ranger.

Exactly.

We have to assume that they're keeping Whips as Finesse based on our current information.

Agreed.

None, actually. One used a longbow, the other dual wielded, and the other was a Soul Knife.

A sample size of three is pretty small to make judgements. Maybe you're right and handcrossbow for whip is a wash; I doubt it.

I don't take multiclassing into account when breaking down if a Class got Nerfed/Buffed. That would be ridiculous.

Of course it would. I wasn't doing that, though.

And Readying an Action and Opportunity Attacks are situational nerfs. And I noted those were nerfs. I don't know what your problem is here.

They are not. I proved that in an earlier post. There is no nerf here.

I explicitly didn't take these as separate points.

I noted the minor nerfs (Performance, no Evasion on Expertise), and also noted the minor buffs (extra language). What's your problem with this?

None -- you are right. You're up a language.

Again, it's ridiculous that you're considering this a "nerf" to rogues. Strictly comparing how good 2014 Rogues and OneD&D Rogues are at Thieves' Tools, it's 100% objectively true that Rogues got buffed here. They get the benefits of two expertise and Reliable Talent for the price of one and always-on advantage on Thieves' Tools. Who cares if Bards/Rangers can mimic what you're good at? They're not as good at it as you are from their base class features and you're better than you were previously at it!

I undersand your point, and we disagree. There's nothing 100% about it.

"Overall a loss"? Bro, the Longsword is useless to rogues. Sure, losing the Hand Crossbow hurts a bit, but Whips make up for it, IMO.

So call it a wash: this does not meaningfully affect the ratio.

So they're making the classes less front-loaded and are showing signs of supporting high-level play better. While not a buff, it's definitely a positive in my book.

"Front-loaded" is carrying a lot of weight when it includes abilities gained at level 9.

By "multiple" you mean "two". And one of them is highly situational (Opportunity Attacks and other reaction attacks) and the other is 100% unintentional (Green-Flame/Booming Blade).

I did not mention the cantrips.

They lost a bit of damage in cheesy exploits and highly situational reaction attacks.

And here we come to a real nub. It's not highly situational reaction attacks -- that's a mischaracterization. As for "cheesy exploits": while I recognize the hand crossbow is really just a fantasy version of the pistol, I thnk it's well-enogh established in the fiction of the game and beyond to avoid that claim. Dual-wielding whips, though? If we are throwing out labels like "cheesy" in a build, then I suggest you consider your own preferences.

And I think that you also believe the same.

.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think overall the rogue received a buff, because they can now dual wield and use cunning action. They can now dual wield hand (repeating) crossbows.
Losing out on a sneak attack in the first round can become a problem. But a rogue who is hidden at the start of combat should have not problem attacking with advantage and get the sneak attack anyway.
Skulker or alert (to just swap ini with tge fighter) can help you, if you think it is too difficult to get sneak attack otherwise.
Or hell, just get lucky and use it in your first turn of combat.

Edit: you can't judge a single rule in a vacuum. We already are able to produce a more powerful rogue as the normal rogue who does not ready their hasted action.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But a rogue who is hidden at the start of combat should have not problem attacking with advantage and get the sneak attack anyway.

My experience is that this is hard. As an archer I can sometimes (or even often) find cover and Hide/Shoot. But I really prefer to play melee rogues, which means I need an ally adjacent to my target.

 

[Mistwell]

You do not need expertise in thieves' tools, because you roll dex(sleight of hands), and advantage for the proficiency in the tool.

You could roll dex(thieves' tools) and add advantage for the relevant skill... but why should you?

Because for a variety of reasons you might have a PC that you want to have expertise in thieves tools but not slight of hand? Your role playing concept is that they're good with tools, but not with the other aspects of slight of hand?

I am OK with the change, but it IS a change that some people may not like because it does remove one type of expertise while changing how another type of expertise can work if you were to get expertise in that skill. It's not that meaningful a change, but in the grand scheme of the changes to the rogue it does add up.

I think to better understand where some people are coming from on the issue of the Rogue, I'd suggest this video from two well known YouTubers on the topic. I think they cover it pretty well, though they miss some things here and there too as it's just a first read and first impression.

 

[Mistwell]

it's 100% objectively true that Rogues got buffed here.

It's definitely not. You're substituting your opinion for fact, and not considering why people disagree with you.

I'd suggest you check out this video by two prominent YouTubers on the topic who cover, with a first read, why many people disagree with you on whether the Rogue was buffed or nerfed. They're not perfect, they will miss some things particularly as they're reading it live for the first time, but they make a lot of points which resonate with me and a fair number of others.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Because for a variety of reasons you might have a PC that you want to have expertise in thieves tools but not slight of hand? Your role playing concept is that they're good with tools, but not with the other aspects of slight of hand?

I am OK with the change, but it IS a change that some people may not like because it does remove one type of expertise while changing how another type of expertise can work if you were to get expertise in that skill. It's not that meaningful a change, but in the grand scheme of the changes to the rogue it does add up.

I think to better understand where some people are coming from on the issue of the Rogue, I'd suggest this video from two well known YouTubers on the topic. I think they cover it pretty well, though they miss some things here and there too as it's just a first read and first impression.

Treantmonk has its place, but he in no way represents normal playing. And taking away optimization needs is a big plus in my book.

 

[Mistwell]

Treantmonk has its place, but he in no way represents normal playing. And taking away optimization needs is a big plus in my book.

It's not just Treantmonk in this video?

 

[Kinematics]

Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place).

I always assumed that "once a turn" was meant to limit sneak attack to once a round, but the game designers didn't realize that it would apply to Opportunity Attacks and multiclass combos.

This is not correct. The ability to use sneak attack multiple times per round (as long as they were on different turns) has always been explicitly known and allowed.

Here's some Sage Advice comments on it, the oldest of which is from 2015: Can the rogue Sneak Attack twice during the same round, if on two different turns?

 

[Staffan]

90% of character made on the site. The amount of characters made on the site and the amount of characters that actually participate in campaigns are vastly different issues, and we don't have stats for the second issue (WotC might from their surveys, but we don't).

I'm pretty sure I've seen the D&DB folks mention that the stats they present are filtered for "active characters", and that they have certain criteria for that. Things like hit points going up and down, and other resources being used.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

This is not correct. The ability to use sneak attack multiple times per round (as long as they were on different turns) has always been explicitly known and allowed.

Here's some Sage Advice comments on it, the oldest of which is from 2015: Can the rogue Sneak Attack twice during the same round, if on two different turns?

That's just saying that is Rules as Written. Not that they intended that combo.