Rogue Sneak Attack Rules Question(s)!

[Droogie128]

Generally you don't provoke OAs while standing up. If for any reasons he does provoke an OA I guess you would have CA b/c OAs are immediate interrupts so they happen before the triggering action, in this case before standing up.
You would have CA for the hit entry (the damage roll) b/c the effect entry comes before the hit entry (remeber that only melee attacks against prone targets get CA). But I can only guees that it would not apply to your attack roll b/c in your example no attack entry is listed after the effect entry.

To clarify: OA's are not immediate interrupts. OA's are opportunity actions, immediate interrupts are immediate actions. OA's do, however, interrupt the action that provokes them.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ok, first scenario, the enemy stands up from being prone and provokes an attack of opportunity. Does he grant combat advantage for that attack because he was prone, or does the attack take place after he stood up?

Standing up from prone doesn't, by default, provoke an OA.

An OA takes place before the triggering action

If a special power granted an OA against someone for standing up, then they would still be prone when the OA triggered.

If he triggers an OA for anything after he stands, he isn't prone for the OA.

Next question, a rogue encounter power reads:

Effect: You knock the target prone
Hit: 2W + Dex

In that order. So the question here is rather the target grants combat advantage because the "Hit" is written after the "Effect", or does not grant combat advantage because when the power was executed the target was not prone.

Sneak attack is applied when you attack a foe that you have CA against and hit them.

Since the effect line occurs after the attack line, the target is not prone when the attack hits, so you do not satisfy the conditions for sneak attack.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I'm not 100% sure, but i thought you could only deal sneak attack dmg once per round unless otherwise stated or unless you have a feat that says something different. Assuming i'm right (please tell me if i'm otherwise) that you can only deal sneak attack dmg once per round, then your first question about dealing sneak attack dmg with and OA would only matter if you didn't deal sneak attack dmg at an earlier point during the current round and only if you had CA against the target.

W/o special powers/feats/etc. it is still once per round. But the question was never if he could deal sneak attack damage more the once a round.

To clarify: OA's are not immediate interrupts. OA's are opportunity actions, immediate interrupts are immediate actions. OA's do, however, interrupt the action that provokes them.

Thanks for clarifying this. I know they are different but an OA behaves rather immediate interrupt like regarding interrupting triggering actions. Sadly my explanation reflects that more than I like.

 

[firesnakearies]

I disagree with everyone else. I would rule that you absolutely get your Sneak Attack damage with that power on a hit.

Yes, by the strict reading of the RAW that states "Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage" it sounds more like you should have to have combat advantage before you attack in order to deal the Sneak Attack damage. However, I think that strict adherence to the cult of apparent RAW is not necessarily the best way to reliably arrive at the intent of every single little rules case. And that's not the ONLY possible way that you could interpret that rule, anyway.

In this case, the way that power itself is written indicates its intent, to me. For one thing, there would be no point at all in listing the prone effect on a separate line before the damage line. None. Most powers would list it as part of the hit line, or afterward. The fact that it is conspicuously placed before is good evidence that it's intended to affect the damage roll after it.

Also, the flavor text of the power (I don't want to hear about how "fluff isn't rules", the power fluff text can often be useful in deciphering how the power is intended to work in cases like this) reads:

"You deliver a flying kick to the face of your foe, knocking it to the ground. You then plunge your blade into its vitals."

It's obvious that the intent of the power is for you to knock the target prone, and THEN deal damage, taking advantage of that prone state. The power may have been written a bit carelessly given the strictest reading of the RAW on Sneak Attack, but it seems clear to me that it was intended to work that way.

As the RAW could possibly be a bit more loosely interpreted to allow for it, and the writing of the power (both in its specific and rare formatting order, and its fluff text description) strongly implies that it is meant to work in such a way that you can take advantage of the prone condition with that very damage roll (which comes after the target is prone), I'd rule with no hesitation that Sneak Attack could be applied in this case.

Some people are more fanatical worshippers of the most restrictive possible reading of any bit of RAW that they can find. I am not, and I believe that most good DMs are not, and that the game designers themselves are not.

I think that the power is written exactly how it is because it is intended that you have no combat advantage for the attack roll, but you do have it after you've hit, but still affecting the damage roll. Denying Sneak Attack here seems to me a poor call, contrary to the intended design of the power, for no better reason than a sort of clinging to one possible reading of a more general rule.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

firesnakearies you are probably right with your interpretation of the intention of the power. And I would probably allow to add the sneak attack damage to the damage roll even if you had no CA when you made the attack roll.

The point is one question is what is RAW and another is would be RAI broken or better.

They should have written:
Effect: You knock the target prone and you can deal sneak attack damage when you roll for damage if you still have it available.
or something like that to avoid confusion.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sneak Attack has two conditions.

Have you hit the target? And do you have combat advantage?

Sneak Attack is resolved after the -damage roll- not during the hit roll. This is stated specifically in Sneak Attack.

So, when you roll the damage, you are then checking to see if Sneak Attack resolves.

At the point this power deals the damage, you have combat advantage, and have hit it, and thus the damage applies.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Sneak Attack has two conditions.

Have you hit the target? And do you have combat advantage?

Sneak Attack is resolved after the -damage roll- not during the hit roll. This is stated specifically in Sneak Attack.

So, when you roll the damage, you are then checking to see if Sneak Attack resolves.

At the point this power deals the damage, you have combat advantage, and have hit it, and thus the damage applies.

This directly contradicts the latest update and the answer I gave depending on it. The updates states that you must have CA when you hit with a power to apply sneak attack damage. I can't find rules text that supprots your interpretation. But you are right regarding this, you roll sneak attack damage after you know the result of your damage roll. So this is not the same as saying you check if sneak attack applies.

 

[DracoSuave]

This directly contradicts the latest update and the answer I gave depending on it. The updates states that you must have CA when you hit with a power to apply sneak attack damage. I can't find rules text that supprots your interpretation. But you are right regarding this, you roll sneak attack damage after you know the result of your damage roll. So this is not the same as saying you check if sneak attack applies.

It contradicts your interpretation of it.

I actually used that wording.

"Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage."

I also used the FULL wording of it.

"Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage. If you have dealt Sneak Attack damage since the start of your turn, you cannot deal it again until the start of your next turn. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases."

At the time you have hit this particular enemy, you check. Do I have combat advantage against this enemy? Check. Did I hit -that- enemy? Check.

At the time the decision is made, the conditions are true. It does not matter if the conditions are not true at a different time during your action; you check when you make the decision. That's an important distinction; you're not rolling the damage after other damage, you are making the -decision- to use the ability at all.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I believe your still wrong, let me explain why.

I say:
1) Check if you have CA
2) Attack roll and if you hit proceed
3) After you roll damage and if 1) was true before 2) happened you can now choose to use your sneak attack

Whereas you say:
1) Attack roll
2) Check for CA
3) on a hit you can apply your sneak attack after rolling damage

But the rules text says you must have CA when you hit the target not at some point after hitting the target. The part about choosing to use sneak attack after rolling damage doesn't concern the fact wether you're alllowed to use sneak attack at all or not. It's the option you have if sneak attack is allowed.

 

[DracoSuave]

I believe your still wrong, let me explain why.

I say:
1) Check if you have CA
2) Attack roll and if you hit proceed
3) After you roll damage and if 1) was true before 2) happened you can now choose to use your sneak attack

Whereas you say:
1) Attack roll
2) Check for CA
3) on a hit you can apply your sneak attack after rolling damage

But the rules text says you must have CA when you hit the target not at some point after hitting the target. The part about choosing to use sneak attack after rolling damage doesn't concern the fact wether you're alllowed to use sneak attack at all or not. It's the option you have if sneak attack is allowed.

No, it says you must have combat advantage and have hit the target.

If you knock the guy prone, when you decide to apply sneak attack damage, do you have combat advantage, and did you hit the target? Yes.

So yes, it applies.

And the order is this:

1) Attack roll
2) Damage roll
3) Check for Combat Advantage and if you hit the target.

Not the other way around.

(and no, that doesn't mean if you have a power that's '1[W]+Foo damage, and knock the enemy prone' that it'd qualify, as the damage happens before the knocking prone in this instance)

It's a very subtle difference, but it matters in the few cases where you have:

Attack: Stuff
Effect: Prone
Hit: Damage

and

Effect: Prone
Attack: Stuff
Hit: Damage

and

Attack: Stuff
Hit: Damage
Effect: Prone

The prone is definately supposed to affect the damage roll, but not the attack roll.