Rogue with BAB 6/1 get 2 Sneak Attacks with Full Attack Action?

[Storm Raven]

Yes, sadly a rogue gets multiple sneak attacks with multiple attacks.

IMC, sneak attack is an action. There's just something about a potential 50d6 points of sneak damage possible in a round that does not sit well with me. Even 30d6 in a round doesn't sit well with me... Even the player who is playing the rogue suggested this, probably because he knows how much of a pain it can be if a rogue does this to his companions...

Wow, you noticed that high level characters are powerful and dangerous? That must have been a shocker for you.

By the way, how much damage can that 19th level hasted wizard do to an entire group of enemies with, oh, a pair of Meteor Swarms or something?

Lots more than the rogue? So I guess you just have a problem with rogues being really dangerous then.

 

[Darklone]

Urghs

A lvl40 character with ring of improved invisibility? Hah. If he has to fight things that don't see invisible things or have other means to find him or waste him, I pity him. He'd die soon cause he's BORED.

Guys scream about multiple sneak attacks. Take an average lvl10 fighter with good Str and stuff and a longsword +2 and he'd use Expertise +5 and Power Attack +5, will still hit and do some 20 points of damage per hit. Without having to care if he can sneak attack. Where's your problem?

I more care about Fighter/Rogues. They usually have a lot of hitpoints, enough feats and some extra damage as well as horrible good skills. Well, good enough. Well, they lose 2 hitpoints per level rogue. Sooo sad.

 

[wolff96]

By the way, how much damage can that 19th level hasted wizard do to an entire group of enemies with, oh, a pair of Meteor Swarms or something?

Lots more than the rogue? So I guess you just have a problem with rogues being really dangerous then.

Um.... wow.

Did you miss the 50d6 in the paragraph above? At 19th (or 20th) level, a wizard with haste can fire off two meteor swarms in a round. Depending on your blast pattern, you could give one (maybe two if you're really lucky) 48d6 damage. And that's IF THEY MISS THEIR SAVES. Or don't have evasion. Or Improved Evasion. Or rings of elemental resistance (which will only help SOME, granted.)

If you target someone directly with the spheres, then they don't get a save -- but you're limited to only one target, negating the advantage that the wizard had.

Even so, the wizard is limited by number of times per day. As long as the rogue can set up flanks, obtain a ring of blinking, or some other circumstance that gives him sneak attacks -- AND hit the monster, which is a drawback -- then the rogue definitely wins.

By the way -- if you're really looking at damage, use an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. If you're hasted, that's 60d8 damage in a round. That will put you ahead of the rogue again...

------------------------

All that said, I still don't think that rogues getting sneak attack with every hit is anywhere near broken. Between monsters that can't be sneak attacked (Oozes, undead, constructs, etc.), Armor of Fortification, Concealment, Range limits, and actually needed to strike an opponent, the ability is balanced.

Not to mention that the rogue actually has to get into combat with the creatures in question... Which means he's putting his measly d6's (at 20th level) up against some of the biggest monsters on the planet. That's not the most intelligent thing to do all the time...

 

[drnuncheon]

Even so, the wizard is limited by number of times per day. As long as the rogue can set up flanks, obtain a ring of blinking, or some other circumstance that gives him sneak attacks -- AND hit the monster, which is a drawback -- then the rogue definitely wins.

Except of course that the wizard doing these super-damaging spells is also doing them to multiple targets, while the rogue is doing that damage to one. So I'm not so sure it's a 'definite win' for the rogue even given all those things.

J

 

[Storm Raven]

Did you miss the 50d6 in the paragraph above?

Nope. You just didn't think your response through.

At 19th (or 20th) level, a wizard with haste can fire off two meteor swarms in a round. Depending on your blast pattern, you could give one (maybe two if you're really lucky) 48d6 damage. And that's IF THEY MISS THEIR SAVES. Or don't have evasion. Or Improved Evasion. Or rings of elemental resistance (which will only help SOME, granted.)

Area of Effect. The Wizard can potentially nail dozens of opponents with spells like that, dealing piles of damage to each of them. The Rogue only gets to deal out his damage once.

Think about it: if the Wizard drops his pair of Meteor Swarms on, I don't know, a dozen cloud giants for example (a group not necessarily unreasonable for a high level Wizard to be encountered with), he will deal at least 24d6 to each of them absent the factors you detailed like evasion and so on (which would be rare in this case). That is a total of 288d6 worth of damage inflicted. And that assumes that every cloud giant succeeds at the minimum DC 23 Reflex save. If they fail, then that would be 576d6 worth of total damage.

The Rogue, by contrast, is limited to dealing out a maximum of the 50d6 figure noted before. A maximum that must be set up properly, requires a series of successful attacks rolls to even be eligible to inflict, and has no area of effect potential.

Even so, the wizard is limited by number of times per day. As long as the rogue can set up flanks, obtain a ring of blinking, or some other circumstance that gives him sneak attacks -- AND hit the monster, which is a drawback -- then the rogue definitely wins.

Not even close. As you noted, the Rogue has to successfully attack. His low end attack rolls are going to be really lousy, and made significantly worse as a result of dual wielding (necessary to get to the 50d6 figure, otherwise he is stuck on the 30d6 figure and the Wizard wins this comparison no matter how you look at it.) The liklihood of him landing all five attacks against most reasonable opponents is almost negligible in this circumstance.

And at 19th level, a Wizard has 4 6th, 4 7th, 3 8th and 3 9th level spell slots without any bonuses from high stats, being a specialist or any other element. He's not going to run out of powerful damage components any time soon. Probably not nearly as quickly as that Rogue will run out of hit points from being pummelled by the guys he is trying to sneak attack.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Urghs

A lvl40 character with ring of improved invisibility? Hah. If he has to fight things that don't see invisible things or have other means to find him or waste him, I pity him. He'd die soon cause he's BORED.

Fine. How about this, an apprentice level multiclass character? rog 0.5/ftr 0.5. Do you like that better? Does that take you back to the good ol' days? Does it revive the "true spirit" of D&D? Quit your crying.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, THAT was unnecessary.

In any case: SA is balanced, at least in repeated playtesting and in my games. Those who don't agree: design an SA-maxed character and I'll design a non-SA character of the same level. We'll run each of them against two opponents, one subject to SA and one immune to it, and compare the overall results.

 

[The Sigil]

Heck...

In any case: SA is balanced, at least in repeated playtesting and in my games. Those who don't agree: design an SA-maxed character and I'll design a non-SA character of the same level. We'll run each of them against two opponents, one subject to SA and one immune to it, and compare the overall results.

Agree SA is balanced. Why?

Wizard can get off his 48d6 blast almost any time, no attack roll needed, and (importantly) from range.

Rogue must be (a) flanking or (b) catch opponent flat-footed and also in melee (or w/in 30').

Obviously, flanking is the easiest to attain, but difficult to maintain (watch the baddie take a 5' step to get next to your rogue and AoO your buddy as he tries to move into flanking position again).

Flat-footed... gets one possible shot in the surprise round (if there is one) and another shot if he wins iniatitive. That's about it. Winning initiative, even with a great Dex and Imp Init is probably around only around a 65-70% chance for the rogue.

In melee... as has been pointed out, the rogue is looking at soaking up a lot of damage if his sneak attack doesn't bring down his target...

To say nothing of having to make the hit rolls...

All in all, balanced... call the few opportunities when a rogue gets to do the whole 50d6 the "rogue's fireball" (similar to the GC/WWA combo, ther "fighter's fireball").

--The Sigil

 

[Victim]

Re: Re: Urghs

Fine. How about this, an apprentice level multiclass character? rog 0.5/ftr 0.5. Do you like that better? Does that take you back to the good ol' days? Does it revive the "true spirit" of D&D? Quit your crying.

THe point is, that by the time a character can expect to be able to aquire or make a ring of invisibility, blnking or improved invis, most of the opponents will have effective means of neutralizing the invisibility.

Almost all high end outsiders have true seeing or see invis up all the time, some with multiple counters. Many creatures, such as dragons, have blindsight. Creatures with Darkness, or BLur spell powers will have concealment in most cases if they get a chance - it may not help the first target, but it might save his friends. Characters might aquire see invis items or cast the Blindsight spell. Fortification effects work too, but are very expensive. Also, the movement and mobility options of high level creatures can make flanking more difficult.

Sneak attack is great ability, but defenses against it grow more prevalent as its damaging power grows, so it remains balanced.

 

[coyote6]

Don't forget armor with the fortification special ability. Heavy fortification, at +5 equivalent, might be expensive, but "immunity to critical hits (and thus also sneak attacks)" is mighty tempting.