Pathfinder 1E Rogue with ranged weapon and standing from prone

[delericho]

Being prone is similar enough to having cover that I'd allow a character to use it for stealth, as long as opponents are not too close (withing reach of a reach weapon for your size category seems reasonable - it is the angle of observation that matters, and taller creatures have both a better visual angle and longer reach. So 2x normal reach).

The big question is if "falling prone" or a 5 ft. step is considered movement. Since Stealth is a part of movement, this is vital. I'd say it is - the rogue does need the help.

The Pathfinder SRD explicitly covers this: you cannot use Stealth while attacking. It does provide an exception to this (appropriately labelled "sniping") which allows a character to make an immediate Stealth check (at penalty) to remain hidden... but again, it specifies that this can only be done after the character takes one attack.

 

[Starfox]

You cannot use Stealth while attacking. If you attack, then move, you are no longer attacking while moving (and using Stealth). You appear when attacking, then immediately disappear again. I think my last post still stands.

 

[delericho]

From the Pathfinder SRD:

"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

The character has just made a ranged attack, so using Stealth is a move action. And because he has just taken a full attack action, he has no move action to give.

 

[Starfox]

I must admit my memory of how Stealth works was colored by 4E, where it was more liberal.

"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

Does the second sentence supersede the first, or do both need to be true to allow stealth?

 

[delericho]

"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

Does the second sentence supersede the first, or do both need to be true to allow stealth?

I don't think it's either - I think the first gives the rule, while the second provides an example. That is, because we rely on sight more than our other senses, blocking line of sight is probably enough to attempt Stealth. But, of course, if you were stupid enough to get into concealment and then shout "Hey! I'm over here!", that would negate your efforts!

(Or, perhaps more likely, you might seek out concealment, thus breaking the creature's sight, only to find that it also has tremorsense, or x-ray vision, or some other supernatural sense that prevents Stealth.)

Of course, the third sentence allows for the classic "throw a rock to create a distraction" technique... although even that is somewhat problematic - if the guard is observing you even casually, surely he's going to see you throwing the rock. So, really, you would need to be in a hidden position to do it anyway... in which case you could already attempt Stealth. (But, yeah, that's basically what I envisage for that one, with examples being present in many films... "Dungeons & Dragons" being amongst them.)

 

[Starfox]

So, we have to reverse the order we do things...

<beginning of sniper's turn> - Move into hiding (can be a 5 ft. step - hide - full attack - <end of sniper's turn>

Repeat until win.

Of course, this has the disadvantage of not making you not hidden dring the opposition's turn. Also, it kind of stretched credibility and seems a bit abusive.

In 4E we had a (dagger throwing) sniper who constantly did a throw - move - hide routine. That worked well in 4E, and didn't seem overpowered. I think it would work in 3E/Pathfinder too, as long as the sniper did not make full attacks. Full attack (with Rapid Shot) and sneak attack might be over the top.