D&D 5E Rule of Three - February 14th

[Lokiare]

Question 1: I think concentration is a good idea. I'm not currently convinced that it adequately addressed problems with D&D's magic system as I see them.


Question 2: I agree that such a feat should not exist.



Question 3:



That's how I understood it as well, but I do think the wording was a little convoluted and unclear.

I think it addresses being able to insta-kill via direct damage, but still does not address the spell being an encounter ending spell. There are far worse things I can do to the frog than squish it.

I'm a little confused by the mention of 4E solos. They weren't very effective. What I hope he means by that is they're looking at the mistakes/issues with 4E solo design, and not making some of the same choices, but are instead using some of the ideas seen in the solos of later 4E books.

Erm... some solos weren't effective and others were.

I remember a Solo Shambling Mound that got a few characters killed (since it could absorb them (out of play) and if the shambling Mound took damage it split it between itself and absorbed party members and it dealt ongoing damage while they were absorbed.). Basically the party couldn't attack it while it went on its rampage and damaged them, the best they could do was action denial until the absorbed characters made their saves. It was nearly a TPK.

There was also the solo polearm Fighter with infinite OA's as a 'trait', and 'indomitable' which allowed them to make a save at the start and end of their turn (even against things that don't normally give a save with the normal +5).

I'd have to say a well built 4E Solo was a terror to behold.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I'd like to see mighty monsters be handled like 4E handled solos, giving them ways to shake off effects and act off turn more frequently. The Legendary monster we've seen was a great start and i think templates such as Elite and Solo could also help give other important monsters (solos or named monsters not necessarily faced alone that aren't necessarily Legendary, like say Bulgrock the giant chieftain) ways to do more things and protect itself more easily. Things like saving throws as reaction and bonus actions to shake off effects and strike back or move etc...would help make such villain more dynamic and help them survive longer.

I also think monster saving throw need to be upgraded somehow, because they are generally too low against PC's spell's DC, which increase constantly with scaling proficiency bonus and ability modifier as they level, while monsters only rely on ability modifier, leaving them to trail behind right from the get-go.

 

[Lokiare]

I'd like to see mighty monsters be handled like 4E handled solos, giving them ways to shake off effects and act off turn more frequently. The Legendary monster we've seen was a great start and i think templates such as Elite and Solo could also help give other important monsters (solos or named monsters not necessarily faced alone that aren't necessarily Legendary, like say Bulgrock the giant chieftain) ways to do more things and protect itself more easily. Things like saving throws as reaction and bonus actions to shake off effects and strike back or move etc...would help make such villain more dynamic and help them survive longer.

I also think monster saving throw need to be upgraded somehow, because they are generally too low against PC's spell's DC, which increase constantly with scaling proficiency bonus and ability modifier as they level, while monsters only rely on ability modifier, leaving them to trail behind right from the get-go.

I like the 4E solos because they worked within the rules and action economy. They did not come off as cheap 'cause the DM said so' tactics, which is how the Legendary off turn actions come off to me and the people I talk to about it.

Player "I cast my third Web on the White Dragon, he gets disadvantage on the save. Ha, ha this is gonna be funny."

DM "Hold on there, the Dragon Flies out of range. Ha ha!"

Not exactly a game I want to play...

 

[Plaguescarred]

Oh I loved the legendary monster template especially because of how it could act multiple times in a round and often at unexpected times. The 4E dolgrim and ettin were monster i had great fun with when i used them because of their multi-turn ability.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Player "I cast my third Web on the White Dragon, he gets disadvantage on the save. Ha, ha this is gonna be funny."

DM "Hold on there, the Dragon Flies out of range. Ha ha!"

Not exactly a game I want to play...

Aren't you liking and playing 4E? Because it has creatures and PCs having similar abilities as well thta can move and shake off effects as immediate interrupt and opportunity actions....

 

[Lokiare]

Oh I loved the legendary monster template especially because of how it could act multiple times in a round and often at unexpected times. The 4E dolgrim and ettin were monster i had great fun with when i used them because of their multi-turn ability.

I have no problems with multi-turn creatures. What I have a problem with is a completely different subsystem for a special type of creature and the specific way they implemented it, which again is like the whole 'rocks fall, you're all dead' type of play style that I do not enjoy.

Aren't you liking and playing 4E? Because it has creatures and PCs having similar abilities as well thta can move and shake off effects as immediate interrupt and opportunity actions....

In 4E its completely different. Players can grab similar powers and they all (players and solos) work within the normal rules for actions and reactions. The DM doesn't just jump out and say 'gotcha' and pull something out the players can't ever attain.

So a 4E player can say "I see how that worked within the system. I'll grab <x> power and do the same thing."

You can't do anything like that in 5E. You can't say "I'll take <x> power and act whenever I feel like it between turns 6 times each encounter gaining an extra action and move and whatever and just completely ignoring the first 2 saves I have to make."

It just doesn't work.

Even when a creature in 4E has an off turn action, it can't use more than one and the players can trigger it and then safely ignore it. It follows a structure that is just missing in 5E.

If I wanted to free form "rocks fall you die" DM, I certainly wouldn't need to buy 5E to do it.

 

[Plaguescarred]

There is a lot more off-turn screwing in 4E than in D&D Next. All type of monsters have off turn powers in 4E while in D&D Next, only legendary has, which was a first draft that will probably be pollished and refined a little more by the time it sees publication.

Also, legendary monsters don't have the power to make rock falls and kill everybody, no need to hyperbole.

 

[Lokiare]

There is a lot more off-turn screwing in 4E than in D&D Next. All type of monsters have off turn powers in 4E while in D&D Next, only legendary has, which was a first draft that will probably be pollished and refined a little more by the time it sees publication.

Also, legendary monsters don't have the power to make rock falls and kill everybody, no need to hyperbole.

Each character and monster in 4E can take 1 off turn action per round and 1 opportunity action per turn. Its a baseline assumption of the game and everyone gets it in 4E, even solo's. That's what makes it appealing.

Legendary creatures don't have 'off turn actions' they have 'I can go when I want between someone elses turn actions six times per round'. Which is an entirely new subsystem.

And it isn't 'rocks fall everyone dies'. It feels like a move that a DM that uses 'rocks fall everyone dies' would use.

Another example:

Player "All right, I've got my big spell ready and the Dragon has used his two get out of save free cards, so I'm going to lay the smack down on him."

DM "Screw that, He flies out of your reach, and he does that right before your turn every round."

Even if the DM plays it 'fair' it will still come off as that.

It would be much better if they codified it into the regular combat system. Maybe make an action point system similar to 4E and allow characters to gain action points. Then if a dragon shows up and has a few extra action points, its not a big deal. Especially if characters can use action points between other creatures turns. Then it makes sense and doesn't feel as arbitrary.

I don't like it because it feels like an excuse. "I'm sorry, we couldn't make the combat system work right to challenge the players, so we decided to make this subsystem and give it just this one type of monster."

 

[NewJeffCT]

There is a lot more off-turn screwing in 4E than in D&D Next. All type of monsters have off turn powers in 4E while in D&D Next, only legendary has, which was a first draft that will probably be pollished and refined a little more by the time it sees publication.

Also, legendary monsters don't have the power to make rock falls and kill everybody, no need to hyperbole.

I don't really like interrupts much at all, and that's one of the reasons I never "loved" 4E, despite it being much easier to DM than 3E/3.5E/Pathfinder.

DM, "and the damage is 27, and you're weakened until the end..."
Player 1: "wait, I do my immediate interrupt power!
Player 1 rolls, "subtract 5 from your to hit roll... sorry, you never hit me. nyah nyah nyah!"
DM: "Then you take only 13 damage and you're not weakened"
Player 2: "I do my interrupt to take 10 off that 13 damage, so your 13 is now only 3 points of damage..."

Immediate reactions I'm okay with - something happens, then you react to it by moving, making a bonus save, reducing the damage, etc. Always thought it was a bit cheesy to turn a hit into a miss like that.

(And, yes I know there were interrupts in 3E/3.5E, but they were far less common...)

 

[TwoSix]

I would imagine because Solo type creatures like dragons will have ways to break those spells as Rodney intimated.

So its a good control spell to remove one of a group of monsters-- monsters of the standard variety who won't have special ways to break SoD types of spells. It just won't be as useful against Solos. Although... it might still have some use if you can still get it to go off and it gives you a round or two without the dragon attacking... giving you a couple rounds to heal up or get into better positions for when the dragon gets another save and snaps back into its normal form. A 4E-ish [save ends] kind of deal.

Wait, wait, wait...

So you're telling me that in regards to Polymorph, 5e is just like WoW?