Rules Disagreement with my DM, please help!

[Pax]

Key phrase given varying emphasis below, in the spell description.

Bigby's Clenched Fist

Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Strength 8
Components: V, S, F/DF

As Bigby's interposing hand, except it moves and attacks as directed by the character. (The character directs it as a free action.) The floating hand can move up to 60 feet and can attack in the same round.Since this hand is directed by the character, its ability to notice or attack invisible or concealed creatures is no better than the character's.

The hand attacks once per round, and its attack bonus equals the character's level + the character's Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (for a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer, respectively), +11 for the hand's Strength score (33), -1 for being Large. The hand's damage is 1d8+12, and any creature struck must make a Fortitude save (against this spell's save DC) or be stunned for 1 round. A stunned creature can't act and loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. Attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack it.

That means the caster directs it's attacks -- in the least, it should bypass the mirror image (since hte caster will direct it to hit the correct image). Blur is a bit more tricksy, but ... in all honesty, Occams Razor would seem to indicate: if the caster can see X at a certain degree, and the spell is under his or her direct control and direction ... the spell acts as if IT could "see" as well as the caster can.

So, Occams razor says: the Hand whacks as well through Blur, Invisibility, Darkness, and so on, as if it were the Caster's own hand.

 

[Shallown]

Okay the Dragon used deeper darkness.

I thought True seeing didn't help with this.

It can see through Illusions and Polymorph type spells. Deeper darkness is an Evocation or conjuration I think.

And if the dragon was in deeper darkness then the Blur and Mirror image have no effect anyway.

But I agree that the Spell sees/senses what the caster does unlike some other hand spells.

Just wondering.

later

 

[Li Shenron]

I agree with the others as well. I'd say at worst, you ignore the mirror image because your directing the attack, but the blur still applies since the hand has to make the attack roll.

But like I said, that's worse case scenario, I think you ignore both.

I agree completely. I would have no doubt that at least you can discern which is mirror image and which is real.

The blur penalty is more unclear, the fist attacks on its own, but you direct it and his attack bonus depends on your level. Maybe I'd rule that still the dragon is concealed, since you direct the fist as a free action, you're not exactly focusing on hitting the target, but basically telling the fist where to strike?

 

[kreynolds]

Shallown, that was a little outta left field there, bro.

Were you replying to someone or just making a general comment?

 

[Shallown]

Kreynolds

Just a general comment. Was reading the thread when something was nagging at the back of the mind. The main part nagging was that the deeper darkness should have made mirror image and blur a mute point then I realized that darkness isn't an illusion spell anymore. SoI looked up true sight on the SRD and it doesn't mention affecting Darkness.

So I threw the thought out , but with no lead in it certainly seemed like left field.

Thanks

Later

 

[hammymchamham]

I agree with Sean K. Reynolds, the DM is not always right. Just this last weak I was using a creature that summoned a creature way to powerful. Basically, it summoned a CR 8 critter when my mis understanding of the text stated it summoned a CR 4 critter. The group of 5th level PC's almost lost a PC (he was down to -9 but the CR 8 critter helped the party after the defeat of the summoner to heal the party). I wasn't right. I made a very poor rulling.

Back on topic, I think that Bigby's Clenched Fist would see through (and ignore) what the caster sees through (and ignores)

 

[Marius]

I agree with Sean K. Reynolds, the DM is not always right. Just this last weak I was using a creature that summoned a creature way to powerful. Basically, it summoned a CR 8 critter when my mis understanding of the text stated it summoned a CR 4 critter. The group of 5th level PC's almost lost a PC (he was down to -9 but the CR 8 critter helped the party after the defeat of the summoner to heal the party). I wasn't right. I made a very poor rulling.

Back on topic, I think that Bigby's Clenched Fist would see through (and ignore) what the caster sees through (and ignores)

There's a difference between making a mistake, and making a ruling that contradicts the PHB, or DMG, or even the MM. In those cases, the DM is always right, because their decisions supersede all of those.

 

[kreynolds]

There's a difference between making a mistake, and making a ruling that contradicts the PHB, or DMG, or even the MM. In those cases, the DM is always right, because their decisions supersede all of those.

Hardly. A DM is not always 'right'. Sometimes, they are, yes. But sometimes, they just make a 'ruling', and there's a big difference. If a DM makes a ruling that bugs me to the point that I deem it unreasonably 'wrong', and it negatively impacts upon the game, then I'll just find a new DM. Simple as that really.

 

[kreynolds]

I agree with Sean K. Reynolds...

See, now you're just antagonizing me.

 

[LokiDR]

Hardly. A DM is not always 'right'. Sometimes, they are, yes. But sometimes, they just make a 'ruling', and there's a big difference. If a DM makes a ruling that bugs me to the point that I deem it unreasonably 'wrong', and it negatively impacts upon the game, then I'll just find a new DM. Simple as that really.

I agree. I had a DM would change elements of the game that were taken for granted in the middle of an encounter because he didn't like us getting through using the smart tatic we came up with. House rules are one thing, changing the game to spite your players is another.