(Rules-Meta-YB) YB Items

[Berandor]

Zappo: The reason is simplicity and ease of recognition.

If I fight someone, and have to look through 15 one-shot items to see what he can actually do (n addition to an artifact), I am bored and annoyed.
That is not to say what happens if the fighter in question could use all these items in a fight; just browsing through a page-long sig or post to read it all will be a pain... especially when it happens with a lot fighters.

Also, with one artifact, you can still opt to stay out of the item game. But if people have a lot one-shots around, I HAVE to have my own items or be seriously underpowered.

YB should be about choices, not about a forced progression or yen use.

Furthermore, it is possible to wear items or give them away without them having any power.

Berandor

 

[Zappo]

It costs 5 yen to build the weakest of items. 5 yen is the whole amount Kerall found in his entire career until now. And I would have used them to make a permanent item, never a one-shot.

Yeah, GrayDoom has more than a hundred yen. But he is the exception, not the rule - he probably has more than half of all the yen ever generated in the whole game! And many of them came from the pawn shop. And even him, would never use those yen to make 20 one-shot items. He would probably make a single very powerful permanent item and maybe one or two one-shots.

What I'm trying to say is that it is statistically impossible for someone to own more than maybe two or three one-shot items, and even that would be a rare, very rare case. With the rarity of yen, I am sure that most everyone will hold his yen until he can upgrade his signature item, instead of spending them on multiple one-shots. Additionally, one-shots are, well, one-shots - they disappear once used.

Considering the yen they cost versus their effectiveness, there is almost no reason to make one of them. 5 yen to make something that will give you a signature style once? 15 to have a dirty trick once? I think only players with IC reasons will make them, maybe once or twice in their career. What's the chance to get a yen, 1 in 20? So, you've got to generate 100 moves before having 5... which means, about 10 matches. And after 10 matches, who on Earth is going to spend those yen on an item which maybe will let him do ONE extra damage ONCE, or maybe will be wasted without effect?

In fact, I think that most fighters would only make one as an ultra-elite gift, or as the consequence of retiring and leaving their own signature item to someone. Only sashes might have the yen to actually make them "in mass", but what could that "in mass" mean? 2? 3?

Most fighters will be hard-pressed to find the money for their signature item. Certainly they will not waste it in one-shots. The situation I predict is one where most fighters have no items; some have a single one-shot - probably inherited from the player's previous character, a good number have their permanent item (with one or two powers), and only the real veterans have a permanent item and, worst case, one or two one-shot items. The situation is only marginally better for sashes.

Once all is taken into account, it seems clear to me that one-shot items will be elite gifts, legacies from retiring fighters, tournament prizes. Rare and precious events. Not something that happens every other day. Not something that one owns 5 of. But still something that I would miss.

Ok, I'm done.

 

[Wicht]

IMO there will be more yen in the long run then there is now. The main reason will be the ability of sashes to produce yen in their fights. I upped the crowd pleaser ability for this very reason in the final rules. This yen will not stay only in the sashes however. The fact that they must now pay as much not to fall a rank as they would recieve means that the yen is more likely to be circulated around a bit. If yen seems too scarce (after say about 2-3 weeks of playing) we can always tweek the generator a bit.

I also think that more yen slipped between the cracks because there was no reason for fighters to record it - nothing to spend it on once the pawn shop shut down (which happened long before it burned down). And now too, in strategy fights, there will be more incentive to use yen moves than not.

And Zappo, it cost 10 yen to build the weakest of items.

 

[Zappo]

And Zappo, it cost 10 yen to build the weakest of items.

Oops, I forgot the item's cost.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Okay three questions to get consensus on and then I think we will be mostly done...

1) Should one be able to have both 1 temporary and 1 permanent item?

2) Should an item have a base cost or should just the first power have a cost?

3)Should Pure Spirit, Foul Spirit, Profiteer, and Crowd Pleaser be item powers

and one more
4) What other powers might an item add - just ideas if you can't do rules - we can always work them out

Any other votes on these questions? So far the few who have voted seem to have majority answers showing the following:
1) One item only per fighter.
2) Base item should cost in addition to powers.
3) No to more Sash powers, but possibly others as long as they are finalized before restart.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Wicht, this isn't item related, but I thought I'd ask anyway since you are online and will probably see this.

Can we change the Signature style gained to be the last move used in the fight instead of the last one used after the flags were neutral? Unless there was some important reason for it to be that way which I am forgetting. Thanks.

 

[Wicht]

Can we change the Signature style gained to be the last move used in the fight instead of the last one used after the flags were neutral? Unless there was some important reason for it to be that way which I am forgetting. Thanks.

No reason that I know of except that was the way we have done it - it doesn't really matter one way or the other. If you think it will be easier to remember that we then sure as long as no one else has a problem with it.

I will also add Foul Spirit and Pure Spirit into the item powers, though I am not sure they are worth marking as at will powers. That would make them cost at least 15 yen each, provided they were the first power bought. (1+1 (for path power) +1 (for at will) x5=15). They just don't seem worth that much to me (especially pure spirit). 10 yen is still pretty steep for such a power IMO and I wonder at how many will bother with them.

No one has remarked much on "Charmed" but I don't think it would be that unbalancing - its a worse power than bribe judges and sort of like a chi strike after the fact so I think it fits as balanced.

As to really epic powers for items - my gut instinct is no. Items should become epic items because of the number of powers they contain - not because they have one or two munchkiny powers IMO. And I think we should leave the conversion for the dark/light paths alone - otherwise what are you converting to?

 

[Rathan]

I hope you guys aren't mad at me for sugesting powerfull item power suggestions..I was just throwing them out there for the sake of it...... no one else was giving any ideas..... so I thought I'd throw out what popped into my head.......

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

I'm sure nobody is mad at you for making suggestions, Rathan. They weren't bad suggestions, IMO, even if they were perhaps too powerful.

 

[Wicht]

Just cuz a person disagrees doesn't mean they are mad Rathan