"Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis

[Mordane76]

At the risk of sounding like a complete dullard, is there a website where these rules are posted, or are all the rules simply floating in these threads?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Hmmm . . . Wow . . . That's a pretty low estimation . . .

UK, I don't suppose you could break it down with your ECL system for me, and/or point out where I am going wrong on the following listing?

Here is how I calculated everything:

8 Shapechanger HD = ECL +4
Monk Abilities = ECL +2
Oozaru Form = ECL +2
Power Adaptation = ECL +1
Tail Weakness = ECL -1
Ability Scores +22 = ECL +2

Shapechanger (1/3) 8HD = +2
Monk = +2
Power Adaptation = +1/2
Tail Weakness = -1/2
Ability Scores = +2
Oozaru (ability scores) = +5.5

The Ability Scores are pretty darn high, which is why I gave it +2, because that is what a creature would get for getting that big of an increase in power, especially with the increases coming in Str and Con, the two most useful Ability Scores.

I still think the ability score increases for the Oozaru form are a bit much. Maybe +40 STR; +20 CON; -10 DEX?

Anyway, lemme know where I'm going wrong, and lemme know if you want me to explain and of the powers of the Saiyan, if yoy have any questions. Then break down your estimate for me so that I can adjust things accordingly.

Are you sure the Oozaru are meant to be Colossal. Remember Colossal means that Medium Sized creatures will be smaller than its little finger! Is that the scale they presented in the cartoons?

Well, the PC was a Fighter1, a Quasi-deity with 8 Outsider HD, he was a two-weapon fighter with a Longsword +5 and a Short Sword +5 and roughly average stats. (Average for a Quasi-deity, that is: 30/28/25/31/31/29.) I think he had approximately 100 hit points. The Sacred Fist was a multiclass Cleric6/Sacred Fist10, and the Sorcerer was a straight Sorcerer16.

The Oozaru in question, however, had over 200 hit points, and never did miss with an attack because the attack power was around +30 or more. Each hit did nearly 50 points of damage, and he gets three attacks per round, so . . .

I will note for the record, however, that the player is NOT a min-maxer, but then again, players aren't SUPPOSED to min-max, so . . .

The PCs should have been hasted and had all defensive options in effect. They also should have started with ranged attacks preferably flying.

Anyway, that's how it happened. Needless to say, it wasn't pretty. The Oozaru could smash a Tarrasque pretty hard even, it really is an Epic monster. Just a very limited Epic monster.

As for an Oozaru being Colossal, well . . . Those thigns are like King King size, pretty much as big as some smaller skyscrapers. Maybe not as tall as Godzilla (Godzilla is 390 feet tall, or something like that. My friend happens to be a Godzilla MANIAC, it drives me nuts, he thinks Godzilla is invincible, although I KNOW a Super Saiyan would smash Godzilla.), but easily as big as Tarrasque or a Great Wyrm.

...maybe one of the later Super-Saiyan incarnations could beat Godzilla. Or just destroy the planet Godzilla is on.

 

[Anime Kidd]

I read the thread, but I may have skipped a few things. Readin' the board or 4am isn't really good. I can see you have put forth many-an-hour on this and it is good, but too powerful for my tatses. And when you keep saying "Saiyans are usable in nearly any campaign" I can't help but smile.

And now the Saiyans. Yeah I think they are way to powerful. 8 HD? I think they are tough, but thats a bit much. I was thinkin natural armor or damage resistance, similar to the barbarian ability. Whats with their bite attack? Im assuming its for Oozaru form. As for Oozaru, it should be Gargantuan, not Colossal, as they are about 40 ft. tall with 'monkey-power'. At least thats what on the net.

The Saiyan Warrior/Elite shouldn't be classes. The Saiyan Warrior class could be replaced with a ki-using martial artist class. The Saiyan Elite is more of a social thing, kinda like being a low-class noble.

I personally think that most of the characters in DBZ, saiyans included, gain the bulk of their powers from a class and only when they are 'powered up', by using their ki/power level. The power level is their reserve of energy and when its empty, they are exhausted. This could be presented in a pool of ki points or what not, maybe even taking subdual damage when using such powers, tiring them out faster. As your saiyans stand now, there is no way for them to become exhausted, like how Vegeta was when fighting Recoome, unless that happens at negative HPs.

As I was writing this post, I was looking over my DBZ conversion. I placed Saiyans at +8 ECL! With Half-Saiyans ECL +5, 1/4 Saiyans ECL +3, and Nameks at +5. Though I do admit that I have never tested my conversion and just guessed at the ECLs.
My Oozaru form has about half the stat bonuses/penalties of yours: +20 Str, +10 Con, -10 Dex, and Int is dropped to 3.

Anyways, this thread is making me want to go through my own D20 DBZ again and make it into full-blown D20. *sigh* Another project to go along with all my the other project.

 

[Anubis]

At the risk of sounding like a complete dullard, is there a website where these rules are posted, or are all the rules simply floating in these threads?

Everything is in the very first post of this topic. I post all updates there, so you can always find the most current rules there. I may eventually post this on a web site, however. Maybe.

Hi Anubis mate!

Yo!

Shapechanger (1/3) 8HD = +2
Monk = +2
Power Adaptation = +1/2
Tail Weakness = -1/2
Ability Scores = +2
Oozaru (ability scores) = +5.5

Oh, you reduced the value of HD? So what is the new system?

+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice (33%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice (25%) for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

I take it you reduced the values like so, bumping everything down one notch?

Anyway, as for the ability scores, I take it you're going with ECL +1/2 for each 5 points?

Thanks! Looks like I may have it right after all! I was just gonna add or take away HD to even it out to CR 10 anyway, but I'm glad to see that everything works out in the end. Thanks for the help!

I still think the ability score increases for the Oozaru form are a bit much. Maybe +40 STR; +20 CON; -10 DEX?

Well, basically I gave it all the adjustments for increasing in size from Medium-Size to Colossal, then gave it an additional Str+8, Con+4, Int-4, Wis-4, Cha-4. Basically I gave it beast intelligence and stuff and what would be one extra size increase.

As for it being accurate, well, an Oozaru can knock over buildings with it's fist and step on thigns made of steel, so I'd say the numbers are pretty accurate, if not a little low!

Are you sure the Oozaru are meant to be Colossal. Remember Colossal means that Medium Sized creatures will be smaller than its little finger! Is that the scale they presented in the cartoons?

I think you are overestimating Colossal here. According to picture in the core books, a Medium-Size creature is about 1/16 the size of a Colossal creature. To answer your question, though, an Oozaru can pick up a human as you or I would a can of soda. A can of soda is more or less 1/16 our own size, so with an Oozaru at about 100 feet tall, it would be Colossal.

The PCs should have been hasted and had all defensive options in effect. They also should have started with ranged attacks preferably flying.

You mean they would have been prepared? By your standards, wouldn't that decrease the challenge of the encounter? This one happened with neither side prepared. In fact, the Saiyan in question was the fourth party member who happened to look at a full moon one night while in the Inn. The other three booked it out of there fast, then tried to fight it, but failed miserably. They had no time to prepare.

The Oozaru, of course, destroyed the entire town during the battle. It wasn't pretty. If a Saiyan and an Oozaru were seperate creatures, I'd give the Saiyan CR 8 and the Oozaru CR 24, no joke.

...maybe one of the later Super-Saiyan incarnations could beat Godzilla. Or just destroy the planet Godzilla is on.

Damn skippy!

I read the thread, but I may have skipped a few things. Readin' the board or 4am isn't really good. I can see you have put forth many-an-hour on this and it is good, but too powerful for my tatses. And when you keep saying "Saiyans are usable in nearly any campaign" I can't help but smile.

Well, when I made that statement, I assumed that MOST campaigns started at Level 1 and advanced into Epic levels. I never realized how so many people despised Epic levels and avoided them like the plague. I honestly don't understand that way of thinking myself, but you have a point on that note.

And now the Saiyans. Yeah I think they are way to powerful. 8 HD? I think they are tough, but thats a bit much. I was thinkin natural armor or damage resistance, similar to the barbarian ability. Whats with their bite attack? Im assuming its for Oozaru form. As for Oozaru, it should be Gargantuan, not Colossal, as they are about 40 ft. tall with 'monkey-power'. At least thats what on the net.

Well I wanted to avoid natural armor and damage reduction, simply because that's not how I see it working in Dragonball and Dragonball Z, with Goka and Gohan respectively. They could take a lot of damage, even as kids. The stats I present here are for adult Saiyans.

As for the Oozaru, I think those web sites are way off when they say the Oozaru is only 40 feet tall. The Oozaru could step on humans and hold them in the palm of his hand (you see this during the Saiyan Saga), and that just wouldn't be possible at 40 feet tall. If I were an Oozaru, those numbers would make a human 9 inches tall, which is too big to hold in the palm of my hand, squeeze, or step on the human. Another good example is that I have 9 inch feet. If I were a 40 foot Oozaru, the human would be the size of my foot. When Vegeta steps on Goku, however, you can tell that the foot is much bigger than Goku, who is really big himself. Then there is also the knocking over buildings bit. Therefore, I concluded that an Oozau must be around 100 feet tall, and thus Colossal.

The Saiyan Warrior/Elite shouldn't be classes. The Saiyan Warrior class could be replaced with a ki-using martial artist class. The Saiyan Elite is more of a social thing, kinda like being a low-class noble.

I created these classes because Saiyans have their own special ways of training, and their own class seemed appropriate. I know it is not 100% accurate to the series, but I needed a class that would lead to the powers of Raditz and Vegeta, which is the basis of the Saiyan Warrior (Raditz) and the Saiyan Elite (Vegeta). Goku, by the way, I counted as a Monk. Same with Gohan. Trunks and Goten would be Fighters.

Anyway, that was my reasoning. I wanted to give them their full Saiyan powers without making it part of race specifically. It's for balance only, really.

I personally think that most of the characters in DBZ, saiyans included, gain the bulk of their powers from a class and only when they are 'powered up', by using their ki/power level. The power level is their reserve of energy and when its empty, they are exhausted. This could be presented in a pool of ki points or what not, maybe even taking subdual damage when using such powers, tiring them out faster. As your saiyans stand now, there is no way for them to become exhausted, like how Vegeta was when fighting Recoome, unless that happens at negative HPs.

Losing power is attributed to taking damage. Using ki powers costs subdual damage, and once that exceeds your hp, you're unconscious. Not as serious in a game with healing, but considering the insane prerequisites and the fact that everyone in Dragonball Z was already AT LEAST Level 20 or Level 30, I think I nailed it on the head with the feats I created. You can find the full rules in my "Big Book of Feats" thread. Heck, you MUST use those to use the Saiyans properly, to be honest.

As I was writing this post, I was looking over my DBZ conversion. I placed Saiyans at +8 ECL! With Half-Saiyans ECL +5, 1/4 Saiyans ECL +3, and Nameks at +5. Though I do admit that I have never tested my conversion and just guessed at the ECLs.
My Oozaru form has about half the stat bonuses/penalties of yours: +20 Str, +10 Con, -10 Dex, and Int is dropped to 3.

Well we're pretty close. Mine is ECL +10, or CR 10. As for the Oozaru stats, well . . . I merely gave the size increases to stats, that's all, plus a few extra points. Considering they can knock down buildings effortlessly, I figured you'd need AT LEAST Str 60 for that, to do it as well as an Oozaru does at least.

Anyways, this thread is making me want to go through my own D20 DBZ again and make it into full-blown D20. *sigh* Another project to go along with all my the other project.

Inspirational!

 

[Anubis]

Update - October 26, 2002:

HUGE UPDATE! I posted tons of errata, and also removed all Dragonball GT material (Golden Oozaru, Super Saiyan 4) from the conversion because it is not officially sanctioned by Akira Toriyama, and I want Toriyama's Saiyans, not Toei's or FUNimation's.

I think may be the last really big update, as everything seems to be pretty much perfect at this point. ENJOY!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I managed to catch an episode of DragonballZ earlier and during a flashback moment there was a fight between a character and an Oozaru. Seemingly they are at least Gargantuan; probably Colossal in size.

So I defer to your superior DBZ knowledge.

By the way, the channel was touting the 'Fusion Saga' - is that particularly good?

 

[Anabstercorian]

Screaming and stripping vegetation

I was watching DBZ yesterday and I'm wondering, Anubis - Let's say I wanted to do that thing that the Saiyan's do when they bug out, scream until they get a hernia, and unleash this huge blast of wind/ki energy/noise that knocks everyone nearby flat on their ass and strips the vegetation from the ground. Can I do that with your rules, or should I make up another feat for that, like Explosive Ki Shout?

 

[Anubis]

Re: Screaming and stripping vegetation

I was watching DBZ yesterday and I'm wondering, Anubis - Let's say I wanted to do that thing that the Saiyan's do when they bug out, scream until they get a hernia, and unleash this huge blast of wind/ki energy/noise that knocks everyone nearby flat on their ass and strips the vegetation from the ground. Can I do that with your rules, or should I make up another feat for that, like Explosive Ki Shout?

Ah, energy shock. I have yet to come up with any rules about it, mainly because the series never goes into detail about it AND because there seems to be no real definition of it. Basically, they do it in the series whenever they feel like it.

JUst the same, Gotenks has a lot of energy attacks that would be difficult to emulate, especially the Cosmic Halo.

Some things simply don't convert very well, when the series doesn't define it in strict terms. I probably will not add any such rules, although I may come up with something about energy shock. MAYBE.

 

[Anubis]

Update - October 29, 2002:

Posted some errata due to changes to my feats. Hit points have changed because Saiyan's Toughness has changed, and Improved Stunning Fist was replaced by Damage Reduction Break because Saiyan's no longer automatically get the Stunning Fist feat.

 

[Anubis]

Bump.