D&D General Rulings, not Rules: How Will You Solve the Bard / Half Elf Dilemma?

[Mannahnin]

No rules. He's a Fighter. Just like any other Fighter. Well, from a "mechanical" perspective (see below).

I agree with this post and this conclusion. A Bard is just a normal Fighter until he chooses to switch to Thief, at which point we check to make sure he fulfills the Bard prerequisites. There is no such thing as a "pre-Bard". This is supported by the Dragon 56 Sage Advice column which confirms that while still a Fighter they have no weapons or armor restrictions, "because they're not bards yet."

 

[Voadam]

I agree with this post and this conclusion. A Bard is just a normal Fighter until he chooses to switch to Thief, at which point we check to make sure he fulfills the Bard prerequisites. There is no such thing as a "pre-Bard". This is supported by the Dragon 56 Sage Advice column which confirms that while still a Fighter they have no weapons or armor restrictions, "because they're not bards yet."

Can a half elf switch to thief? Does he need to have the bard prerequisites to do so even though he is not a bard yet? Does he need to meet the dual class prerequisites to do so? Once he has switched to thief must he switch to druid/bard or can he just keep going as a thief?

 

[Mannahnin]

Can a half elf switch to thief? Does he need to have the bard prerequisites to do so even though he is not a bard yet? Does he need to meet the dual class prerequisites to do so? Once he has switched to thief must he switch to druid/bard or can he just keep going as a thief?

1) I would interpret the Bard entry as implicitly granting permission to do so.
2) I would say any would-be Bard employing the Bard rules to switch from Fighter to Thief must meet the Bard prerequisites.
3) I would say not, as the dual class rules are separate from and conflict with the Bard rules.
4) Excellent question. If I were ruling to remain as consistent as possible with the Bard rules, I would probably say that they have to either switch or stop advancing once they've hit the max Thief level allowed by the Bard rules.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

1) I would interpret the Bard entry as implicitly granting permission to do so.
2) I would say any would-be Bard employing the Bard rules to switch from Fighter to Thief must meet the Bard prerequisites.

I think this is what people really MEAN by the term 'pre-bard', a character which is operating under the rules provided by the Bard class, not the other more general rules of the PHB, etc.

3) I would say not, as the dual class rules are separate from and conflict with the Bard rules.

This one is highly problematic as there are MANY rules under Dual Class which are needed in order to actually function as a character with 2 classes. In fact the Bard rules imply that at least SOME of these ARE in effect. PHB P118, notes to Bard Table 1:
"6-sided Dice for Accumulated Hit Points shows an asterisk after the initial
"0" to indicate that the bard has as many hit dice as he or she has
previously earned as a fighter (plus the possible addition of those earned
as a thief if that class level exceeds the class level of fighter)."

The highlighted part is an explicit reference to the Dual Class rules. I mean, we can suppose that the Bard rules are a set of exceptions TO THE DUAL CLASS RULES, but they cannot be seen to replace them.

4) Excellent question. If I were ruling to remain as consistent as possible with the Bard rules, I would probably say that they have to either switch or stop advancing once they've hit the max Thief level allowed by the Bard rules.

It makes sense, and it isn't any less clear really than any other situations where characters fall out of compliance with various restrictions (IE lose a point of STR, you may now exceed the level limit for an elf fighter, what do you do?).

 

[James Gasik]

I posted this in the other thread, but I'll repeat it here:

Back in the day, I had assumed 1e Bards didn't use the standard dual-class rules after reading this entry in the Grey Box;

If Storm were dual-classed, she'd never be able to use her Fighter abilities since she hadn't reached 8th level of Thief...at least, that's the logic I was using at the time.

EDIT: either that, or Storm somehow met the requirements for Bard in reverse, going from Thief to Fighter.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I posted this in the other thread, but I'll repeat it here:

Back in the day, I had assumed 1e Bards didn't use the standard dual-class rules after reading this entry in the Grey Box;

If Storm were dual-classed, she'd never be able to use her Fighter abilities since she hadn't reached 8th level of Thief...at least, that's the logic I was using at the time.

EDIT: either that, or Storm somehow met the requirements for Bard in reverse, going from Thief to Fighter.

It's actually simpler than that- look back at the rules I cited on the first page-

1. A bard must be human or half-elven. ...Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before progressing to Bards Table 1.
(PHB 117)

This one is pretty simple.

1. Storm started as a Fighter. Storm reached 7th level.
2. Storm then dual-classed into Thief. While Storm was a Thief, Storm could not access her fighter abilities (or would lose all XP for the adventure).
3. When Storm reached 5th level as a Thief, Storm them "left off Thieving" and then progressed as a Bard, no longer using the Dual Class rules but only using the rules for her class as a Bard.

This is further indicated by the following rule-
6-sided Dice for Accumulated Hit Points shows an asterisk after the initial "0" to indicate that the bard has as many hit dice as he or she has previously earned as a fighter (plus the possible addition of those earned as a thief if that class level exceeds the class level of fighter). All bard hit dice (and additional hit points) are additions to existing hit dice - none are lost for becoming a bard.


This follows the dual class rule that you don't gain hit points until you exceed the level that you were at previously in your old class.

Of course, this still leaves unresolved the following- dual class requires that you have a 17 or 18 in the primary requisite of the class you are changing into. Thieves have a primary requisite of 17 in dexterity. Therefore, in order to dual class into thief, you need a 17+ dexterity.


...but you only need a 15 dex to be a Bard. So you need a higher dexterity score to be a pre-bard, than a bard.

I miss 1e!

 

[NotAYakk]

It's actually simpler than that- look back at the rules I cited on the first page-

1. A bard must be human or half-elven. ...Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before progressing to Bards Table 1.
(PHB 117)

This one is pretty simple.

1. Storm started as a Fighter. Storm reached 7th level.
2. Storm then dual-classed into Thief. While Storm was a Thief, Storm could not access her fighter abilities (or would lose all XP for the adventure).
3. When Storm reached 5th level as a Thief, Storm them "left off Thieving" and then progressed as a Bard, no longer using the Dual Class rules but only using the rules for her class as a Bard.

This is further indicated by the following rule-
6-sided Dice for Accumulated Hit Points shows an asterisk after the initial "0" to indicate that the bard has as many hit dice as he or she has previously earned as a fighter (plus the possible addition of those earned as a thief if that class level exceeds the class level of fighter). All bard hit dice (and additional hit points) are additions to existing hit dice - none are lost for becoming a bard.


This follows the dual class rule that you don't gain hit points until you exceed the level that you were at previously in your old class.

Of course, this still leaves unresolved the following- dual class requires that you have a 17 or 18 in the primary requisite of the class you are changing into. Thieves have a primary requisite of 17 in dexterity. Therefore, in order to dual class into thief, you need a 17+ dexterity.


...but you only need a 15 dex to be a Bard. So you need a higher dexterity score to be a pre-bard, than a bard.

I miss 1e!

Sure. Except you should treat Dual Classing as a distinct rule system referred to by the Bard system.

AD&D isn't a cohesive set of rules. It is a mixture of whatever rules people writing the game actually played with and rules they thought would be cool so added them to the rulebook.

This was even more clear in previous versions of D&D.

How much should bard progression match dual class rules? As much as you feel like and no more.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Sure. Except you should treat Dual Classing as a distinct rule system referred to by the Bard system.

AD&D isn't a cohesive set of rules. It is a mixture of whatever rules people writing the game actually played with and rules they thought would be cool so added them to the rulebook.

This was even more clear in previous versions of D&D.

How much should bard progression match dual class rules? As much as you feel like and no more.

Trust me. I'm quite aware of how 1e works.

The reason I was using this as an example is because it's within the base rules and shows the interstitial problems with interpretation. It's not that dual classing is a distinct system- it's the system by which you become a Bard. That's why it's referred to throughout the Bard rules. If you were only "Pre-Barding" then you would have the equally bizarre situation where a person could simple "pre-Bard," and then get off the bard train prior to becoming a bard.

So the best answer (as I wrote above) is that when Gygax tossed it into the appendix, he assumed the "character with two class" rules and repeatedly referred to them, and then just had a brain freeze in terms of the half-elf and the pre-requisite for dexterity. But saying it wasn't a cohesive set of rules is true, but is less true when we are only looking at a single book and trying to make sense of it (the 1e PHB).

See also Rod of Resurrection.

 

[SteveC]

Oh how did I miss this thread earlier? I had to laugh at all this discussion because I actually navigated this issue back when AD&D was new. I think I may still have my copy of Peregrine (Perry) the bard somewhere.

What I did then was what you'd do with just about every issue where you shook your head at the written rules: I just talked about it with the DM and we did something that made sense.

We did a version of the dual class rules that made sense (and reading those rules is a SAN loss of 0/d2) where I just did what would eventually look like 3E multiclassing. I remember that the thief part of the journey was the fastest, since early thief levels fly by. Playing this way was "the long game," similar but much more frustrating than playing a wizard. I remember hitting my stride about the same time as the wizard truly came online.

It was definitely an experience. I remember playing just about every day over the summer break from school and it was AMAZING. Nowadays I can't even imagine doing anything like this at one to two sessions a month.

 

[Blue Orange]

Use the original Bard, from Strategic Review Vol. 2 No. 1 (the predecessor to Dragon):

Retro: The Bard for OD&D - Dragonsfoot

www.dragonsfoot.org

It actually works better, being a single class with some mage spells, and is more similar to the 2e version.

Nobody's ever heard of Schwegman, despite being the origin of so many RPG tropes. It's kind of a pity.