Running Large Groups of Players to High Lvls
- Thread starter twofalls
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Rystil Arden
First Post
Level 4 fighter was hasted, polymorphed into a troll, bull's strengthed, and GMWed. He had a keen mercurial greatsword (all perfectly viable in 3.0). Two attacks, both hit and one was a 19 for a crit. Dead balor (they really had a glass jaw back in 3.0, check out the HP). The party had prepared for fighting demons, since they knew that's what they'd be doing. They just didn't expect the succubus to actually succeed at her balor summoning ability.Zappo said:
The CR 13 girl was the FB's daughter, and he had decided to min/max her to high heaven just for fun (Fighter/Monk/Cleric/MysticWanderer/Duelist/Templar with the Nymph Unearthly Grace ability due to her half-nymph heritage). So she was basically immune to anything that required saves or AC (and importantly, they didn't know whom they were fighting until it was over and the FB cut his own daughter in half, causing him to reel out of Frenzy in shock and summarily die). Then the bad guys captured her and strapped her to a magic item that the PCs had bumblingly let them steal, which actually let her make decent attacks, which certainly put her EL above 13. But her CR was still 13.
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Rystil Arden
First Post
The CR 13 girl was certainly somewhat extreme circumstances.Zappo said:I guess those qualify as "extreme circumstances".
The fighter, absolutely not at all. He was the least buffed member of the party, and the party was well within their right to have access to all of those spells. Unless you considering rolling a crit extreme, I guess. 
twofalls
DM Beadle
I appreciate all your responses. I was watching this thread sink further and futher down the list with no commentary, and was begining to think no one would touch it.
Pinotage - I've heard of the RPG Grim Tales but haven't any practical experience with it. I might try that formulae to see if it will offer me better combat odds.
Rystil Arden - Yeah, I agree. I doubled thier HP to 228 and increased thier AC from 28 to 32.
Devyn - Thats a good idea. It would be a simple thing to add in a few more Devils to the combat, have them engage elsewhere, and then teleport them into combat with the PC's if things are going to easily.
Runesong42 - The CR system threw me when I first started running 3.0. I didn't really understand it that well (mostly because I had no interest in it) and so I basicaly ignored it. I was so used to simply judging the strenths of the PC's and designing to that potential that I decided that I didn't need it. However I quickly discovered that 3.0 characters are far more powerful than any previous editions of the game, and so I revisited the system when they hit 7th level. No character in the game has an overwhelmingly powerful item (the single most powerful weapon is a Staff of the Magi the Mage uses), and most everyone else has a single magical item with 4 pluses in bonuses attached, plus the plethora of supporting items that characters of that level always accumulate. What they do have are 7 characters of high level, a well as Atu'a, a Lammasu with Cleric levels who is the cohort of the group leader. They have tremendous hitting power as a group, and they work very well together as a team. So at this level, I'm finding it quite difficult to measure appropriate oppostition. I DO NOT want to overestimate them and kill them all. Party deaths have been, I wouldn't say common, but its a constant danger. One of my more reckless players has had raise dead cast upon him three times since attaining 9th level. As a result he is the lowest level member of the group.
Keeper of Secrets - The age average in this game is 34 yers old, and the hack and slash style of game is no longer of much interest to any of us. The style of my GMing is lots of roleplay and PC to NPC interaction, very heavy story, and then combat when its unavoidable. However when its unavoidable I try to make combet very dangerous, and my players would often like to avoid the fighting (well, some of them would). I don't follow the 1/4 resources per encounter formulae that they suggest in the book. I've always run my games hot like this and I've been very successful with it. My problem now is maintaining that danger without destroying the group. Since they have hit high levels in 3.0 that has become very hard to do.
I appreciate everyone's feedback. At least I know that I'm not alone in having difficulty with this problem.
Pinotage - I've heard of the RPG Grim Tales but haven't any practical experience with it. I might try that formulae to see if it will offer me better combat odds.
Rystil Arden - Yeah, I agree. I doubled thier HP to 228 and increased thier AC from 28 to 32.
Devyn - Thats a good idea. It would be a simple thing to add in a few more Devils to the combat, have them engage elsewhere, and then teleport them into combat with the PC's if things are going to easily.
Runesong42 - The CR system threw me when I first started running 3.0. I didn't really understand it that well (mostly because I had no interest in it) and so I basicaly ignored it. I was so used to simply judging the strenths of the PC's and designing to that potential that I decided that I didn't need it. However I quickly discovered that 3.0 characters are far more powerful than any previous editions of the game, and so I revisited the system when they hit 7th level. No character in the game has an overwhelmingly powerful item (the single most powerful weapon is a Staff of the Magi the Mage uses), and most everyone else has a single magical item with 4 pluses in bonuses attached, plus the plethora of supporting items that characters of that level always accumulate. What they do have are 7 characters of high level, a well as Atu'a, a Lammasu with Cleric levels who is the cohort of the group leader. They have tremendous hitting power as a group, and they work very well together as a team. So at this level, I'm finding it quite difficult to measure appropriate oppostition. I DO NOT want to overestimate them and kill them all. Party deaths have been, I wouldn't say common, but its a constant danger. One of my more reckless players has had raise dead cast upon him three times since attaining 9th level. As a result he is the lowest level member of the group.
Keeper of Secrets - The age average in this game is 34 yers old, and the hack and slash style of game is no longer of much interest to any of us. The style of my GMing is lots of roleplay and PC to NPC interaction, very heavy story, and then combat when its unavoidable. However when its unavoidable I try to make combet very dangerous, and my players would often like to avoid the fighting (well, some of them would). I don't follow the 1/4 resources per encounter formulae that they suggest in the book. I've always run my games hot like this and I've been very successful with it. My problem now is maintaining that danger without destroying the group. Since they have hit high levels in 3.0 that has become very hard to do.
I appreciate everyone's feedback. At least I know that I'm not alone in having difficulty with this problem.
Zappo
Explorer
The fighter used several of the most overpowered spells of 3.0 (polymorph, haste, bull's strength were all drastically nerfed in 3.5 and the only change I don't fully agree with is the one to bull's strength), and a weapon which many consider overpowered as well. A GMW capable of bypassing balor DR requires caster level 9, and none of the PCs have it; was it from a higher scroll or ally? I don't have the 3.0 manuals around here, but I suspect that a +1 keen weapon is way above average equipment for a 4th level NPC. The fighter has +4 BAB, +1 from weapon focus, +8 from 27 Strength (troll + bull), +3 from GMW, +2 charging; I'm probably mistaken but not by much. He needs a 12 or more to hit the balor's AC 30, and he did it three times in a row (two hits and one confirmed crit). So he got rather lucky too; the chances for that are less than 30%. And he won initiative too. And he was within charging distance of the fiend too. If any of these circumstances were missing, he would have been toast.Rystil Arden said:The CR 13 girl was certainly somewhat extreme circumstances.
I'm not criticizing you or your players - I would have done the same! - but I think that "these are extreme circumstances" is a reasonable statement.
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Voadam
Legend
Demons were severely ovverrated in their CR in 3.0 partially due to their vast spell like abilities. They are in practice very weak foes for their CR and have lower HD than you would think for their CR making them vulnerable in stand up fights.
The Grim tales book also has a CR calculator that many like that can be gotten as a separate pdf product with an excell calculator built in.
The Grim tales book also has a CR calculator that many like that can be gotten as a separate pdf product with an excell calculator built in.
Zappo
Explorer
I didn't mind the weak fiends in 3.0, because that way I could give them class levels and make them more unique. Besides, it makes sense that these beings have class levels... a pit fiend has to go through at least a half dozen forms, each of which takes centuries if not millennia to go through; and unlike elf commoners, they actually do dangerous stuff at least a few times every hundred years or so, otherwise they don't get promoted. How can he not gain at least a few levels in an NPC class? Now they are easier to pick up and drop in front of the players, but if I try to give them class levels I tend to end up with an epic challenge and I generally don't want that.
Rystil Arden
First Post
For the record, the Wizard7 had a caster level hike up to 9 for the GMW, and as a cohort, the party bought him his sword. As I originally mentioned, he was a cohort with buffs, which implies that he would be stronger than a typical Fighter4 because of his relatively powerful allies.Zappo said:The fighter used several of the most overpowered spells of 3.0 (polymorph, haste, bull's strength were all drastically nerfed in 3.5 and the only change I don't fully agree with is the one to bull's strength), and a weapon which many consider overpowered as well. A GMW capable of bypassing balor DR requires caster level 9, and none of the PCs have it; was it from a higher scroll or ally? I don't have the 3.0 manuals around here, but I suspect that a +1 keen weapon is way above average equipment for a 4th level NPC. The fighter has +4 BAB, +1 from weapon focus, +8 from 27 Strength (troll + bull), +3 from GMW, +2 charging; I'm probably mistaken but not by much. He needs a 12 or more to hit the balor's AC 30, and he did it three times in a row (two hits and one confirmed crit). So he got rather lucky too; the chances for that are less than 30%. And he won initiative too. And he was within charging distance of the fiend too. If any of these circumstances were missing, he would have been toast.
I'm not criticizing you or your players - I would have done the same! - but I think that "these are extreme circumstances" is a reasonable statement.
Oh, and point about 3.0 fiends allowing more space for class levels is specious. A 3.0 Balor with 2 related class levels has the same CR as the 3.5 Balor, and it is much much weaker. Outsider levels, after all, are pretty good compared to NPC classes and many PC classes. The 3.5 fiends are not much more CR, if any, but are actually strong enough for their CR. Unless, I guess, you meant that you would add on more than 2 related class levels to a 3.0 Balor and call it even because he was so weak anyway. That's a perfectly viable strategy, I suppose.
Well Rystil at some level you must have been wanting that Balor dead. As far as I can tell that 4th level fighter was in combat with it at least for two rounds and the Balor would have had at least one round to act in.
In that round it could have done a vast number of things that would have either stopped the fighter in his tracks (fear, blasphemy, deeper darkness, greater dispelling, symbol, telekinesis), outright killed him (fire storm, implosion) or remove itself from that psycho troll fighter thingie (by flying or teleporting).
At the very least it should have taken its AOO with its whip at 15 feet reach and tried grappling the fighter (though the chance was less than 50 % due to insane buffing).
Even a 3.0 Balor should always have that Unholy aura up. +4 AC and drastic strength loss on opponent.
In that round it could have done a vast number of things that would have either stopped the fighter in his tracks (fear, blasphemy, deeper darkness, greater dispelling, symbol, telekinesis), outright killed him (fire storm, implosion) or remove itself from that psycho troll fighter thingie (by flying or teleporting).
At the very least it should have taken its AOO with its whip at 15 feet reach and tried grappling the fighter (though the chance was less than 50 % due to insane buffing).
Even a 3.0 Balor should always have that Unholy aura up. +4 AC and drastic strength loss on opponent.
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