TSR Running list of potential problematic issues in TSR era DnD

[Andrew Anderson]

This is even doubly difficult if you have a "living" pantheon where the gods are still getting up to their shenanigans, as opposed the typical D&D pantheon where those deeds all happened in the distant past.

...Now I'm picturing a series of tables.

DM, plotting out the deity's actions for the next few sessions: so... <rolls on table 1> so the goddess of wine is going to... <rolls on table 2> steal something important from... <rolls on table 1 again> the god of the forge because she's... <rolls on table 3> jealous of the forge god's... <rolls on table 4> relationship with... <rolls on table 1> the god of wolves. OK, so, maybe that means that wolves are now going to have advantage on attack rolls made against people who favor the goddess of wine. At least until she apologies. And the thing she stole from the forge god is... <rolls on table 7> his fire so... she stole the coals from his forge and flung them to the ground. Meteor shower time!

Anyone wanna help me make some tables?

Honestly, that sounds like a great way to generate adventures with a mythic feel. It also sounds like a bunch of work to design in the abstract.
I don't think it would be problematic from a diversity standpoint either.

 

[HJFudge]

McWhorter is not without his controversies, to say the least.

As is any heterodox proponent in, well, any field.

Though I am curious if you are referencing to a specific controversy I may be unaware of?

If you are saying 'what he is saying is controversial' then yes, 100%. That doesn't mean he is wrong, of course.

 

[teitan]

As the original commenter, I can clearly say you are in the wrong - that was not what I was saying at all. The problem is that the game allows for pantheons, but priests (and often characters) cannot Derive their abilities from alternating or multiple sources. Even worse, you can only draw power from one aspect of that single source.

Theros is the only product I have seen attempt to break away from this, and has a system that allows tracking of devotion to possibly multiple deities.

Eberron from 3.5 on allowed for this but it’s not really a problematic issue. It would be were it to reflect a past issue based on prejudice but it doesn’t really. It reflects pagan cultural practices such as the greek & Egyptian where there were priests of specific deities like Ankh Fn Khnsu was a priest of Menthu or the Apollo worshippers of Delphi and the Mithraic traditions. The default was originally no specific deity in the 1e PHB with optional rules being for priests of specific deities late 1e and then 2e with the default cleric class being a general priestly character and the specialty priest being a specific deity. 3e regularized the specific deity aspect and Eberron broke that down again. The specific deity was a guideline in Deities & Demigods where Gygax et al laid out that priests of specific deities had limited spell access based on the deities divine status. The specific deity thing was laid into heavily in FR and explained in detail because of the very active and physical work of the gods in that world. The specific deity aspect was an optional rule that everyone seemed to like like feats in 5e or NWPs in 2e so it became the default.

 

[Voadam]

D&D has had fully polytheistic clerics at various points as options, it usually just comes down to narrative flavor.

The default henotheistic cleric model (exclusive worship of one god from a recognized pantheon) is similar to priest models known from Rome, Greece, and Egypt where there were priests of the Temple to X or the high priest of Y.

Forgotten Realms is interesting because it repeatedly says across editions that people act polytheistically and worship many gods as appropriate for the occasion, but also has everyone generally pick a henotheistic one for judging afterlife consequences and for clerics and druids as their patrons.

What is a bit odd but understandable in context is the overlay of monotheistic medieval church models over the polytheistic/henotheistic ancient temple models for D&D's base hybrid generic default.

 

[Wicked Woodpecker]

Also aside of medieval-church feel let's remember that pantheons are not unified forces like squabbling family, but subservient to Great Wheel of Great Tree divided by alignments so - unlike in classic mythology - there is no one unified afterlife (with punishments and rewards) - and that's something vastly different from both real world monotheism and politheism.

 

[Faolyn]

@Wicked Woodpecker, @Galandris, @Andrew Anderson, et al, I just created a post about that here.

 

[tommybahama]

Nothing is wrong with it per se. I was actually quite impressed by it. But if I were a little more aware at the time, I would have had it as an African warrior in traditional dress. To show more diversity not just with the ethnicity of the character, but in the culture as well. To the point above about how we tend to focus on European culture only, even when we’re depicting other ethnicities.

Was the guy even from Africa? You know that at least in North African they had armor and swords similar to what he depicted?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

As is any heterodox proponent in, well, any field.

Though I am curious if you are referencing to a specific controversy I may be unaware of?

If you are saying 'what he is saying is controversial' then yes, 100%. That doesn't mean he is wrong, of course.

He's controversial and problematic because he's a black person that other right leaning white people can point to and say "Hey look this black guy with a Phd agrees with us so we MUST be right about the state of race in america. and all of these other black people who are on the other side are clearly race hustlers and lying."

I know he believes himself to be some sort of left leaning liberal but more than a few of his takes on black people in White America have more in common with white supremacists than black liberation. That's why he's both controversial AND problematic.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Was the guy even from Africa? You know that at least in North African they had armor and swords similar to what he depicted?

No idea if he was originally from africa or of his parents were or whatever. All I know is he lives in Brazil. But who cares? It's not my place to tell someone who is black that they aren't REAL African cultures unless they currently grew up and live in africa. That's....pretty awful of a thing to think or imply.

As for this thread, thanks to those who actually contributed and took it seriously. As expected there were a few items I hadn't thought about and now do. So sincerely thank you for that.

I'm sorry so many people felt the need to threadcap. I suppose another useful thing from this thread is I know who to avoid in conversation now. I suspect this thread will be closed soon, so I wanted to say thanks to those who helped me broaden my understanding of things to potentially avoid going forward.

 

[tommybahama]

No idea if he was originally from africa or of his parents were or whatever. All I know is he lives in Brazil. But who cares? It's not my place to tell someone who is black that they aren't REAL African cultures unless they currently grew up and live in africa. That's....pretty awful of a thing to think or imply.

Stop trying to mind read. You are absolutely horrible at it. I wasn't suggesting what you wrote and how you could get there from what I wrote is beyond me.