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TSR Running list of potential problematic issues in TSR era DnD

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Why? What's wrong with it? Did the artist fail to follow your instructions? Or were you expecting them to automagically divine that because you'd hired them, that you wanted AA themed art?
Nothing is wrong with it per se. I was actually quite impressed by it. But if I were a little more aware at the time, I would have had it as an African warrior in traditional dress. To show more diversity not just with the ethnicity of the character, but in the culture as well. To the point above about how we tend to focus on European culture only, even when we’re depicting other ethnicities.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Nothing is wrong with it per se. I was actually quite impressed by it. But if I were a little more aware at the time, I would have had it as an African warrior in traditional dress. To show more diversity not just with the ethnicity of the character, but in the culture as well. To the point above about how we tend to focus on European culture only, even when we’re depicting other ethnicities.

I thought it looked good.

Check this out though.


Pakeha= European. Depict that in fantasy art lol.
 



teitan

Hero
Comparing AD&D and Gary to the virulent racism of Lovecraft or Howard and the KKKK when referring to "of the time" is the real hyperbole. That you've taken that as a point of criticism to my comment as well shows that this is more about the witch hunt than the witch itself. Compared to other contemporaries of the time Gary was downright progressive and he was emulating a genre and its tropes. Are they problematic? Sure. But we are also living in an age when someone calls a VILLAIN Problematic. Well no duh he's problematic. He is a villain. We shouldn't always empathize with a villain.
 

teitan

Hero
Innocuous to whom exactly?

Also I'm pretty sure that the meanings of racism and sexism to the people affected by them have remained fairly consistent.

This is like the people who defend HP Lovecraft's virulent racism by saying he was a product of his time. NO, even for his time he was a virulent racist. Because there were other people at that time who knew that it was vile and wrong. D&D had problematic parts. To ignore it because it seemed harmless to a particular demographic is to diminish the effects that it may have had on other demographics. It's like the people who insist that systematic racism isnt a real problem when they are the least likely to be affected by systematic racism. Instead of diminishing it maybe try and show some empathy. Or at the bare minimum not show up to kick sand in the eyes of people who actually want to discuss this.
Thanks for implying I am a racist when my approach is actually scholarly and ignoring that I point out the way to progressivism is not to point fingers back but to point them forward with an open hand of embrace because when you point at things you still have three fingers pointing back at you. Before lumping people you do not know into the racist/conservative/etc cart you should analyze yourself for that purity you are looking for.
 




Sacrosanct

Legend
Pantheons of gods and priests who only worship one deity.
Oh! That’s a good one. It certainly seems that all references to a clerics deity infers or outright states they worship only one deity whom they get their powers from. Never really caught that before, but it seems so obvious now that you mention it
 

teitan

Hero
Oh! That’s a good one. It certainly seems that all references to a clerics deity infers or outright states they worship only one deity whom they get their powers from. Never really caught that before, but it seems so obvious now that you mention it
There is an issue with this? really? I mean Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Atenism, even some "pagan" religions are monotheistic. Is it no longer acceptable to be a monotheistic?
 

ccs

41st lv DM
There is an issue with this? really? I mean Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Atenism, even some "pagan" religions are monotheistic. Is it no longer acceptable to be a monotheistic?
Additionally the character could just have attracted the notice/patronage of one of the gods of a pantheon.....
That doesn't seem at all out of character for many of the Greek gods. There's all sorts of stories where they picked sides, favorites, etc.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Additionally the character could just have attracted the notice/patronage of one of the gods of a pantheon.....
That doesn't seem at all out of character for many of the Greek gods. There's all sorts of stories where they picked sides, favorites, etc.

They also had temples and oracles dedicated to specific deities. Hell (hades) some places were famous for it such as Delphi.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
They also had temples and oracles dedicated to specific deities. Hell (hades) some places were famous for it such as Delphi.
Exactly.
And I presume other polytheistic cultures had similar for their deities. Greek is just the one that comes to mind 1st.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Exactly.
And I presume other polytheistic cultures had similar for their deities. Greek is just the one that comes to mind 1st.

Yeah Delphi probably the most famous but each major deity and a few minor ones had specific sites.
 

Nothing is wrong with it per se. I was actually quite impressed by it. But if I were a little more aware at the time, I would have had it as an African warrior in traditional dress. To show more diversity not just with the ethnicity of the character, but in the culture as well.
I see your point, but... if you depict a XYZ warrior wearing XYZ traditional dress... while fighting an undead monstrosity, you'd need to make sure that mechanically, the XYZ dress has the same mechanical protection than the full plate. Because if there is a difference, wearing anything except than the best available armor in the picture makes the XYZ warrior look less advanced, which is also something you'd want to avoid.

When I look at the second picture, I see people who lack any metalworking technology to make armor, fighting with an obsidian-incrusted wooden club instead of more modern weapons... It evokes stone age fighters. So unless the macuahuitl has the same stats as a greatsword and the traditional dress is worth a steel armor, beware of unwantingly reinforcing stereotype of "meso-americans = less advanced".


BTW, both pictures are great art.
 
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Let's just dive right into to the real problems.

The Wallara. Called "Chameleon men", you'd think, hey, might be like, a chameleon lizard-man, right? Nah. Artwork just, had them as Aboriginal Australians. Like, I think even TSR realised these ones were bad as they came back as lizardmen later and haven't been seen since.
There was also another group of blatently Aboriginal Australian derived people in Ravenloft in the Nightmare Lands or wherever it was and I recall them being pretty "Okay, that's dumb"

Oh, and don't forget the old mainstay of Drums on Fire Mountain which I will just put the name down and back away very swiftly from because oh BOY is that one A Problematic Thing.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I see your point, but... if you depict a XYZ warrior wearing XYZ traditional dress... while fighting an undead monstrosity, you'd need to make sure that mechanically, the XYZ dress has the same mechanical protection than the full plate. Because if there is a difference, wearing anything except than the best available armor in the picture makes the XYZ warrior look less advanced, which is also something you'd want to avoid.

When I look at the second picture, I see people who lack any metalworking technology to make armor, fighting with an obsidian-incrusted wooden club instead of more modern weapons... It evokes stone age fighters. So unless the macuahuitl has the same stats as a greatsword and the traditional dress is worth a steel armor, beware of unwantingly reinforcing stereotype of "meso-americans = less advanced".


BTW, both pictures are great art.

In 5E light armor is just as good as heavy for the most part. Slight difference in AC has other advantages.

There's no rules for stone material.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Pantheons of gods and priests who only worship one deity.
Nothing wrong with that - the modern analogy is there being a whole league of teams and yet you only cheer for one.

EDIT to add: and the reason a cleric only worships one deity is because that's the deity who provides her with her spells every day!
 

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