D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Piratecat]

Several sessions in, I'd say about half the players still haven't used a second wind. Of course, we're also deliberately starting a bit slowly while we all get a feel for the system.

That's okay, we use your share! It's uncommon for a fight to go by without at least a few people using their second wind.

And we miss you too. Want to come and play a leader?

 

[WisdomLikeSilence]

And we miss you too. Want to come and play a leader?

Ahh, so tempting.

I actually find it quite satisfying to swoop in and heal another character just when they've gotten that "oh s*** I'm doomed" look on their face. It feels very heroic in it's own way.

Of course, I've also maxed out at about 9 points of damage, so....

 

[Fajitas]

Fascinating to read. Glad to have gotten all caught up. I'm still feeling my way in the dark through 4th Ed myself, so it's nice to gather the additional data points.

Our first fight was a horrible, drawn out sloggish affair, but that had a lot to do with me using a bunch of swarms, and the party not having more than 3 total powers that were close or area (1 of which missed and 1 of which got used before the swarms were in range...)

 

[Alomir]

Ah, the wonder that is D&D 4e. By and large, I'm loving it so far... Combat has been fast-paced and exciting, and there's just as much opportunity for role-playing as before. So far, it seems that skills have had less impact, but that may be because I'm used to Agar's 23rd level absurdly high bonuses. (Ok, thinking about it a bit more, skills have definitely had a real impact. I need to dump the Agar mindset).

I think minions are one of the best additions in 4e. They add interesting tactics, interesting flavor, and allow scenarios that just couldn't be done before.

I am really struggling with one area, though - saving throws. The random factor is just too high. One example on the offensive side has been summarized well:

I guess it depends on the original power.

If it was one of those powers that simply said, "Hit: impose a status effect (save ends)", then I'm inclined to agree with Storminator.

However, if it was one of those powers that originally read, "Hit: impose a status effect (save ends); Miss: impose a status effect until the end of your next turn", then the power really needs some kind of fix in place so that hitting isn't worse than missing 55% of the time.

I find that I'm shying away from any power like that for Logan; they are just too unreliable (I find that it's a real bummer when I'd rather have a good power *miss*). I've seen some interesting house rule proposals for this, but I wonder if the easiest thing wouldn't just be to add a "minimum one round" (or, I guess it would be "until end of your next turn") clause to the hit case; that would not increase the target's chances to have it last *longer* than one round.

On the defensive side, having witnessed another player being stunned *for an entire combat*, and having now been blinded *for an entire combat* (granted, it was two applications for me), I'm finding myself wanting to go well out of my way to work around this mechanic however possible. I'm probably going to drop my alchemy feat (sadly, as this is a character concept piece) to pick up human perseverance. I'm going to have to wait to be higher level to find some magic items to help, but I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

How's the saving throw mechanic working out for others?

 

[renau1g]

So far, I find that I tend to value the saving throw effects lower than others as they tend to be thrown off fairly easily. On the other side, I've not had any cases of failing many times in a row, but if that's the case having a cleric around always helps (I forget their at-will that lets you make a saving throw, Lance of Faith maybe?). So far it seems that effects last for a round-ish so that needs to be taken into account.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In my campaign, as a DM I notice the randomness of it. One PC was slept by 'friendly fire' and spent the next 4 rounds of combat asleep. On the other hand the three trogs all saved at the end of their next turn, thus enduring only one round of being slowed!

I've seen 2 PCs 'bleed out' by failing 3 death saves, and a rogue died to a poison needle trap after failing about 6 death saves in a row (despite the healing surges expended to try to keep him alive).

Two current party members (a human and a half-elf) have both taken the human feat for +1 to saves, but it hasn't actually come into play yet.

From the point of view of a DM (and as a player in the game I play in) I'd be at least as happy with having durations of 1d4 rounds or something I suppose technically the average duration of a save ends effect tends towards 2 rounds). I 'get' that it doesn't give people the excitement of rolling that d20 for saves each turn... but it isn't that much excitement! If it was changed though, what would I do for humans, for hobgoblins, for orb wizards, for elites and solos etc. etc.

As a wizard player in a game, I'll rate 'sustains' powers at the top since *I* get to choose how long they last. 'save ends' powers might work out really well, but it is basically just a crap shoot unless you are a paragon level specialised orb mage or something.

Cheers

 

[Aravis]

On the defensive side, having witnessed another player being stunned *for an entire combat*, and having now been blinded *for an entire combat* (granted, it was two applications for me), I'm finding myself wanting to go well out of my way to work around this mechanic however possible. I'm probably going to drop my alchemy feat (sadly, as this is a character concept piece) to pick up human perserverance. I'm going to have to wait to be higher level to find some magic items to help, but I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

We do have a once per encounter roll a save with a +4 bonus (Divine Mettle), thanks to Toiva. I used this on Logan in the combat where he was blinded. I may have waited too long to use it that combat...

On a related note, I have a question for the assembled masses. If a power targets a Creature, can that Creature be the wielder of the power themself?

Aravis

 

[Alomir]

We do have a once per encounter roll a save with a +4 bonus (Divine Mettle), thanks to Toiva. I used this on Logan in the combat where he was blinded. I may have waited too long to use it that combat...

Perhaps earlier would have been better Of course, there were several rolls where +4 would not have been enough...

However, I'd happily dump the whole mechanic for something more deterministic. Not *completely* deterministic, mind you - but some help here would smooth things out in play, and make many powers more attractive (ones that *should* be more attractive, IMO). Interesting point (from Plane Sailing), though, about using something like a 1d4 for number of rounds - completely removing the saving throw mechanic wouldn't work, as too much of the game interacts with it. Maybe a hard cap at, say, three rounds? Eh, that's not ideal, certainly.

 

[Plane Sailing]

We do have a once per encounter roll a save with a +4 bonus (Divine Mettle), thanks to Toiva. I used this on Logan in the combat where he was blinded. I may have waited too long to use it that combat...

On a related note, I have a question for the assembled masses. If a power targets a Creature, can that Creature be the wielder of the power themself?

Aravis

PHB 57, when defining 'Target' says:

"Creature" or "creatures" means allies and enemies both, as well as you - so wizards can catch themselves in their own bursts.

 

[Plane Sailing]

However, I'd happily dump the whole mechanic for something more deterministic. Not *completely* deterministic, mind you - but some help here would smooth things out in play, and make many powers more attractive (ones that *should* be more attractive, IMO). Interesting point (from Plane Sailing), though, about using something like a 1d4 for number of rounds - completely removing the saving throw mechanic wouldn't work, as too much of the game interacts with it. Maybe a hard cap at, say, three rounds? Eh, that's not ideal, certainly.

A half-way house might be to give an increasing bonus to the save, of (say) +1 each turn after the first. A string of bad luck could still keep you under, but at least the chance of throwing the condition off would be increasing each round.

Of course, then you have the difficulty of keeping enemy creatures under a condition for any length of time...