D&D 5E Running Rime of the Frost Maiden

MarkB

Legend
you mean like


I mean, that's sloppy...
How so? It's saying that by 3rd level they'll have gained enough fame that they'll start hearing some of these rumours, not that they'll be ready to immediately head out then. It's advising DMs to start sprinkling them in around 3rd level so that they'll start organically transitioning into these quests instead of them suddenly showing up once they hit the level requirement, CRPG style.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
How so? It's saying that by 3rd level they'll have gained enough fame that they'll start hearing some of these rumours, not that they'll be ready to immediately head out then. It's advising DMs to start sprinkling them in around 3rd level so that they'll start organically transitioning into these quests instead of them suddenly showing up once they hit the level requirement, CRPG style.
The earlier part of the book tells you to start using Chapter 2 at forth level, but Chapter 2 says to start using it at 3rd level. I'm not sure which is more correct (allowing for the slop in level appropriate encounters), but that's not a trivial issue. It's easy to confuse or be confused. Again, I don't think it's a major issue, but your explanation doesn't really touch on the reason the criticism exists because you're looking at it in isolation and ignoring the other part.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
As an aside, I have found that when I am prepping my own games I get a ratio of about 1:4 -- that is, an hour of prep gets me four hours of table time. Now, I do a lot of improvisation, so prepping is outlining locations and NPC motivations and stuff more than "writing" an adventure.

For published adventures is is at best 1:2 and sometimes closer to 1:1 because I not only have to parse everything the author(s) intended, but also do the work of making sure I have the appropriate stat blocks on hand and make any changes due to incompatibility my group, their play style, etc.
I'm in full agreement with you there.

AND because you have a firm grasp of what do the NPC want, you can really improvised and run them well without having to fear that you are "going to ruin the plot". The plot develops organically.
 

MarkB

Legend
The earlier part of the book tells you to start using Chapter 2 at forth level, but Chapter 2 says to start using it at 3rd level. I'm not sure which is more correct (allowing for the slop in level appropriate encounters), but that's not a trivial issue. It's easy to confuse or be confused. Again, I don't think it's a major issue, but your explanation doesn't really touch on the reason the criticism exists because you're looking at it in isolation and ignoring the other part.
That isn't the case. At the start of the Character Advancement section in chapter 2 it clearly states that the chapter is for characters of 4th level or higher.

What it later states us that from 3rd level they're famous enough to start hearing about some of the content in this chapter.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
That isn't the case. At the start of the Character Advancement section in chapter 2 it clearly states that the chapter is for characters of 4th level or higher.

What it later states us that from 3rd level they're famous enough to start hearing about some of the content in this chapter.
Exactly. There is no ambiguity here, or inconsistent design. There are two places where it clearly says that Chpt 2 is for 4th level (the flowchart in the beginning, and the character advancement section at the start of chpt 2). The reference to 3rd level is solely around when the PCs hear rumors. That doesn't mean the PCs are 3rd level when chpt 2 starts any more than any other adventure hook rumor in every other adventure means the PCs are meant to face said rumor as soon as they hear it. E.g., level 1 PCs hearing about the caves of chaos rumors doesn't mean every cave is to be explored by level 1 PCs, or that Tiamat in HotDQ is meant to be encountered by low level PCs when they first hear those rumors.

A level 1 PC hearing a rumor of a red dragon in the mountains doesn't mean they should head up there right away. Not all rumors are meant to be addressed immediately.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Exactly. There is no ambiguity here, or inconsistent design. There are two places where it clearly says that Chpt 2 is for 4th level (the flowchart in the beginning, and the character advancement section at the start of chpt 2). The reference to 3rd level is solely around when the PCs hear rumors. That doesn't mean the PCs are 3rd level when chpt 2 starts any more than any other adventure hook rumor in every other adventure means the PCs are meant to face said rumor as soon as they hear it. E.g., level 1 PCs hearing about the caves of chaos rumors doesn't mean every cave is to be explored by level 1 PCs, or that Tiamat in HotDQ is meant to be encountered by low level PCs when they first hear those rumors.

A level 1 PC hearing a rumor of a red dragon in the mountains doesn't mean they should head up there right away. Not all rumors are meant to be addressed immediately.
That isn't the case. At the start of the Character Advancement section in chapter 2 it clearly states that the chapter is for characters of 4th level or higher.

What it later states us that from 3rd level they're famous enough to start hearing about some of the content in this chapter.
Um, does it say that they should be discouraged from following up on these rumors until they reach 4th level? I mean, maybe I have weird players, but they tend to follow up pretty quickly on rumors that interest them, which, given this reading, would put me in a situation to decide to alter the encounters to be appropriate, fast track the milestone leveling, or invent stalls to prevent pursuing the rumors, all of which distort play. I suppose it's possible that the normal group of players do not attempt to follow up on rumors for a bit, but I find that unlikely. Which then means that the reading you're both advocating can often lead to distorting play experiences. I'd rather assume it was an unintended type than intentional design.
 

MarkB

Legend
Um, does it say that they should be discouraged from following up on these rumors until they reach 4th level? I mean, maybe I have weird players, but they tend to follow up pretty quickly on rumors that interest them, which, given this reading, would put me in a situation to decide to alter the encounters to be appropriate, fast track the milestone leveling, or invent stalls to prevent pursuing the rumors, all of which distort play. I suppose it's possible that the normal group of players do not attempt to follow up on rumors for a bit, but I find that unlikely. Which then means that the reading you're both advocating can often lead to distorting play experiences. I'd rather assume it was an unintended type than intentional design.
At that point they should still be knee-deep in active Ten Towns quests. Do your players consistently drop what they're doing in order to immediately pursue something new and further afield?

My reading is that it was entirely intentional, and that the intent behind it is to ease them into these quests rather than having this jarring break where up until 4th level nobody talked about any of this, and then suddenly it's the talk of the town and they're expected to head out and deal with it immediately even though there's still stuff going on closer to home.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
At that point they should still be knee-deep in active Ten Towns quests. Do your players consistently drop what they're doing in order to immediately pursue something new and further afield?

My reading is that it was entirely intentional, and that the intent behind it is to ease them into these quests rather than having this jarring break where up until 4th level nobody talked about any of this, and then suddenly it's the talk of the town and they're expected to head out and deal with it immediately even though there's still stuff going on closer to home.
Looking at the structure of the quests, there's really not much difference between the Chapter 1 quests and the Chapter 2 quests outside of level expectations, so I'm not sure how players that just completed a quest to gain level 3 are meant to tell that these quests should wait until they've done a few more Chap 1 quests, especially if they go to a new town and receive the new quest there AND a rumor. If you're meant to be level 4 prior to attempting the quest, this needs to be part of the adventure. None of the rumors are just foreshadowing -- they're actual quest tags that have enough information to follow up on and enter the quest. Again, if this is intentional design, it's poor design, and I'm a huge fan of foreshadowing.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Um, does it say that they should be discouraged from following up on these rumors until they reach 4th level? I mean, maybe I have weird players, but they tend to follow up pretty quickly on rumors that interest them, which, given this reading, would put me in a situation to decide to alter the encounters to be appropriate, fast track the milestone leveling, or invent stalls to prevent pursuing the rumors, all of which distort play. I suppose it's possible that the normal group of players do not attempt to follow up on rumors for a bit, but I find that unlikely. Which then means that the reading you're both advocating can often lead to distorting play experiences. I'd rather assume it was an unintended type than intentional design.

If your players drop everything they are doing to go after a rumor they hear, then just through the nature of the game, they will learn quickly that not all monsters should be fought right there and then. That's not a game design issue. That's a player always assuming you as the DM will cater to their actions, and change the world to cater to their competence. The world doesn't work that way. D&D assumes a living world, where starting PCs hear rumors of a rampaging dragon over the Dreadwood, or an entire city being sunk into Avernus. Just because my level 1 PC heard that rumor, doesn't mean that I should expect my level 1 PC to enter avernus and me as a player to expect all encounters will be catered to my level 1 PC. That's pretty ridiculous, to be honest. If your PCs do assume every encounter and rumor they hear will be catered to their levels, then that's either a) they learn the hard way that not all rumors should be instantly addressed, especially ones that sound extremely dangerous, or b) you as the DM give them some hints that they should probably stick with the hooks they already are working on
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Luke heard at the beginning that the emperor and Darth Vader were the bad guys. So it should have been assumed that he would go fight Darth Vader and the emperor right way, right? Otherwise bad writing of the script...
 

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