Saga skills?

drothgery said:
1) The Saga skill list is consolidated considerably relatively to 'standard' d20 (D&D 3.5 / d20 Modern / Star Wars d20 Revised )

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9) In fact, other than teamwork, equipment, and the Scoundrel's Fool's Luck talent (which lets you spend a Force Point to get a bonus to all skills for a short time), there aren't any ways to increase skill modifiers.

Thanks - I had no clue on the saga system, so your post is very useful to me. It actually sounds pretty good. One thing I've found as a relatively inexperienced 3E player is that it took me a longer time as a DM to create NPCs on the fly. So, this should simplify that process at least.
 

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The problem I see with the rules regarding skills in SAGA, more specifically the lack of skill points, and the skill progression of 1/2 char level for every class for everyone is that some of the designer's premises were not always true.

The premises are: "One advantage of this system is that characters who aren't trained in a skill can still use it in some cases. Since part of your skill bonus is based on your level and ability modifier, as you advance in levels, you essentially gain "free" bonuses to skills you aren't trained in. Thus, you become able to do simple things that previously were available only to those trained in the skill."

and

"At this point, you might be wondering why these changes were made. The simple answer is this: Anyone can do anything in Star Wars if the scene calls for it. For example, over the course of the saga, we see Obi-Wan Kenobi fly ships, deceive people, perform amazing acrobatics, use diplomacy, ride animals, command troops, get information from his contacts on the street, and more. Similarly, Han Solo can fast talk, run, shoot, fly the Millennium Falcon in circles around Star Destroyers, hot-wire doors, lead troops, formulate plans, ride a tauntaun, and use other skills seemingly at will. The new skill system simulates this extremely well. Obi-Wan and Han might not be trained in all the relevant skills, but their untrained bonus allows them to attempt those actions with some chance of success.
In game terms, that chance is important for capturing the Star Wars feel. In the past, some players have been unwilling or unable to participate in certain scenes because they didn't have ranks in the relevant skill. For example, let's say the Gamemaster wants to have a chase sequence where the heroes pursue an enemy while riding tauntauns through an icy canyon on Hoth. Very few people put ranks in the Ride skill -- it just doesn't come up that often. As a result, some of the players might be tempted to say, "Well, I don't have ranks in Ride, so I can't participate in this scene." Thus, the exciting, fast-paced chase sequence the Gamemaster hoped for is reduced to one or two players participating while the others sit and watch."


Full article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2

Everything they say is true in the context they exemplified, but from some roleplaying standpoints, sucking in some skills is not always bad and not funny. Sometime the lack of skill can turn the session to great roleplaying situations.
I once had a dwarf fighter with no pts in Diplomacy skill, obviously :). The campaign had many scenes where we were in the King's court with nobles and important people, so diplomacy skill were heavily used. 1/3 of the campaign was about negotiation and intrigue. The fact that my dwarf was completely anti-social, he had -2 in diplomacy checks, was not a bad thing. I've never said "ok guys, i'll stay here drinking ale, go ahead". On the contrary, many funny situations emerged when he tried to overcome his diplomatic flaws. Sometimes it was hilarious.
Of course being useless in combat may be a great drawback for the character, because the combat plays a big part in D&D games, but sometimes even when your character is completelly useless in the combat, interesting and creative and unexpected situations could come to take place. This kind of challenge is also important for the game.

I hope D&D 4E can keep these elements of the game.
Combat challenge, tactical challenge, choices to be made, characters to create etc, are important types of challenges in D&D, but challenges that can be only solved with creativity, with unpredicted and clever ideas are also very important, and I hope I can still play them in 4E.
So I don't think D&D character should be relatively good in everything. Being a sucker is not always a bad thing in D&D.

If I'm wrong or missed something, please show me. I really wanna like this system if it comes to D&D.
 

Jim DelRosso said:
In SWSE, PCs get triple HP at first level, so taking a class with a high hit die first has a big impact. Secondly, rather than just handing out "proficient with all martial weapons" and the like, characters get a set of bonus feats from their class at first level, but when they multiclass they only get to pick up one of those feats for "free" from the new class. From what I can see, that makes taking the class with the most Trained skills first a lot less of a no-brainer: there are multiple factors to consider.

Ug, that's one of the things I hate about star wars d20 - not getting all the fighter's proficiencies when I took him. Maybe they'll skip that in D&D, or at least tone it down.

As for the skills... bleh. If you want to be skillful, your 1st level has to be skillful, or you have to waste a whole bunch of feats.

Well, I guess we'll see when more details are released.

-Nate
 

Olgar Shiverstone said:
Those seem like really large modifiers (Skill Focus = +5). What does that do to in-game DC's? It seems like you could have modifiers of +10 to +15 for some skills at relatively low levels.

It's worth noting that Skill Focus, at +5, is about the same as old-style Skill Focus (+3) and half a +2/+2 feat (and the +2/+2 feats don't exist in Saga).

You can get a pretty high bonus at low levels -- which helps in terms of making very competent low-level people, but means that a focused 1st-level guy is going to be slightly more competent than a 20th level dabbler (because the latter is untrained, and so can't do trained-only tasks) or about the equal of a 10th level unfocused guy. Which means low-level experts (i.e. trained and skill focused) will always succeed at moderately difficult tasks.

But it's also true that it's really hard to get much more than +25 or so at extremely high levels.
 

The Souljourner said:
As for the skills... bleh. If you want to be skillful, your 1st level has to be skillful, or you have to waste a whole bunch of feats.
More like everyone is skillful, while the guy who takes the scoundrel as first level gets to be exceptionally skillful in a few more areas than the others.
 

Gort said:
More like everyone is skillful, while the guy who takes the scoundrel as first level gets to be exceptionally skillful in a few more areas than the others.

Noble, actually, though I otherwise agree entirely. :)

There are a lot of ways to be very skillful in SWSE without spending feats. Intelligence of 14? That's two extra trained skills. Human? One extra, right there.

And, of course, you still get your ability mod + 1/2 your level on your untrained skills, so you get a good base of competency across the board. It's quite in keeping with the pulpy omnicompetence of Star Wars characters, and I wouldn't mind seeing more of it in D&D... especially if they're going for more of a butt-kicking sword and sorcery feel, which sounds like it might be the case.
 

Mind, with fewer skill choices (18 total skills + 7 knowledges vs. D&Ds nearly thirty) the number of trained skills work easier.

Trained Skills by Class:
Jedi: 2+ Int
Soldier: 3+ Int
Scoundrel: 4+ Int
Scout: 5+ Int
Noble 6+ Int

So a reasonably intelligent (+1) human solider gets 5 choices out of his skill list (11 total skill choices).
He picks Use Computer, Pilot, Treat Injury, Endurance (a skill in Saga), and Initiative (ditto). In addition, he takes skill focus in Pilot.

At first level, his skills look like.
Use Computer 5+ Mod
Treat Injury 5+ Mod
Endurance 5+ Mod
Initiative 5+ Mod
Pilot 10+ Mod
All other Skills: Mod

At 10th:
Use Computer 10+ Mod
Treat Injury 10+ Mod
Endurance 10+ Mod
Initiative 10+ Mod
Pilot 15+ Mod
All other Skills: 5+ Mod

At 20th:
Use Computer 15+ Mod
Treat Injury 15+ Mod
Endurance 15+ Mod
Initiative 15+ Mod
Pilot 20+ Mod
All other Skills: 10+ Mod

He could gain new skills off his class list by raising his Int Modifier or Taking Skill Training (Int Bumps are Retroactive in Saga). You can only increase your class list with multi-classing (a small flaw, but it still works well within SAGA)

Compare that to a 20th level Human D&D Fighter (int mod +1)
Jump: 23+ Mod
Climb: 23+ Mod
Handle Animal 23+ Mod
Swim 23+ Mod
All Other Skills: + Mod

So you have a small group of skills your good at, maybe a skill or two your awesome at, and your mildly competent at all others. And its done without micromanaging ever last skill point.
 

Gort said:
More like everyone is skillful, while the guy who takes the scoundrel as first level gets to be exceptionally skillful in a few more areas than the others.

Just seems like taking a level of rogue at first level will give you a big benefit for the entire life the character, whereas taking fighter first.... kinda doesn't. Yay, 12 hitpoints more than the rogue got... those get lost in the shuffle in the first 10 levels, but the rogue's skillpoints just keep on giving.

*shrug* Maybe it'll be more balanced than it sounds.

-Nate
 

The Souljourner said:
Just seems like taking a level of rogue at first level will give you a big benefit for the entire life the character, whereas taking fighter first.... kinda doesn't. Yay, 12 hitpoints more than the rogue got... those get lost in the shuffle in the first 10 levels, but the rogue's skillpoints just keep on giving.

*shrug* Maybe it'll be more balanced than it sounds.

-Nate

Thing is, soldiers and Jedi aren't fighters, scoundrels and nobles aren't rogues, and SWSE isn't D&D (3.5 or 4). You've got to take a look at the system in its totality, and from what I've seen (including some actual play) it really does balance out over the long run.

If 4e does take Saga's skill system, then you can probably count on some of the other aspects coming along as well.
 

The Souljourner said:
Just seems like taking a level of rogue at first level will give you a big benefit for the entire life the character, whereas taking fighter first.... kinda doesn't. Yay, 12 hitpoints more than the rogue got... those get lost in the shuffle in the first 10 levels, but the rogue's skillpoints just keep on giving.

*shrug* Maybe it'll be more balanced than it sounds.
Bear in mind that the Soldier gets 3 skills at first level, while the scoundrel (the closest to the rogue) gets 4, the scout gets 5, and the noble gets 6. It isn't a 2 vs. 8 like in D&D. Also, soldiers get 5 bonus feats at first level, while the rest only get 3 or 4.
 

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