Sage Answer: Haste & 5ft Step(s)

[SpikeyFreak]

Why can't I ignore this thread?!?!?!?!?

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--Insane Spikey

 

[KarinsDad]

The rules say only one 5-foot step is allowed per round.

Be accurate and honest now Artoomis.

The MEA rule is the only one that states "only one 5-foot step per round". Hence, as far as the RULES go, MEA is a special case. And, it is easy to understand why. The designers apparently (since they explicitly prevented it) did not want a character to take two MEAs as their action and get 2 5-foot steps within that single action (or even within a round as long as you are discussing MEAs).

Your statement "The rules say only one 5-foot step is allowed per round." is an extrapolation or non-literal interpretation of the rules with regard to anything other than MEAs.

For example, the Full Round Action one 5-foot step rule is per action, not per round.

"The only movement you can take DURING a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action."

Ditto for the Partial Action rule.

"Typically, you may take a 5-foot step as PART of a partial action."

It clearly in each of these sections states that you can do your action and take a 5-foot step as part of it. The only explicit exception to this is if you do movement for your full or partial action respectively.

So, according to the LITERAL rules, a hasted character can do a full round attack and take a 5-foot step and then attack with a partial action and take another 5-foot step.

But, he could not do a full round attack and take a 5-foot step and then open a door and take another 5-foot step.

In the second example, the MEA rule prevents him from taking a second 5-foot step.

Plus, the AoO 5-foot step rules have no bearing on how many times you can take a 5-foot step. They only have bearing on how many times you can receive the benefit of not being AoOed when taking 5-foot steps in a round.


Nowhere in the rules does it state that movement within a separate action within the round will prevent the 5-foot move allowance within a full round or partial action. Until you can find such a rule, you are extrapolating based on the MEA rule.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either you take a literal interpretation of the rules and use it in which case our side wins for everything except MEAs, or you do not, in which case you are extrapolating and not REALLY following the rules. You are following what you perceive to be the intent of the rules.

You keep claiming that the rules are on your side, but except for MEAs, you have yet to prove it.

 

[Artoomis]

KarinsDad:

I feel obligated to respond, since you have challenged my integrity.

Page 117:

If your entire move for the round [emphaisis added] is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), enemies do not get attacks of opportunity for you moving.

This quote is the general rule that applies to ALL actions in a combat round (no matter whether MEA, Full Attack or whatever). This rule states you can only avoid a movement-related AoO with a 5-foot move if you make no other move besides a 5-foot move. It's very difficult for me to read this any other way than stating you only get one 5-foot move per round. If you took a second 5-foot move, then you have moved more than 5 feet, and this rule would kick in and enemies would get AoOs for your movement - which is directly opposed to the defintion fo a 5-foot move, which states:

[A 5-foot move is] a small position adjustment that does not count as movement...This movement does not draw an attack of opportunity

Thus you could only take one 5-foot step in a round by the general rule alone.

Page 121:

If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more move-equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during or after the action.

This is under MEA's, true, but it also includes a reference to other (unnamed) actions as well, thus giving it general applicability. It is far from the only general rule in the PHB that is not included under some all-inclusive general heading.

There. The rules support my position directly. Even if you want to use the MEA language as appying to MEAs only (though I don't know how you can do that given the language therein), the page 117 rule still applies and is the main rule.

The only legitimate argument I can see for your side is if you believe the intent of haste is to, essentially, redefine the round into your normal action(s) plus an independent partial action. The spell was not written that way, but if you think that was the intent, then go for it - and have fun.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Your logic is flawed.

If your entire move for the round [emphaisis added] is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), enemies do not get attacks of opportunity for you moving.

Does not mean

This rule states you can only avoid a movement-related AoO with a 5-foot move if you make no other move besides a 5-foot move.

"If A does B, then B only happens through A." is bad logic.

The rule says that if you only move 5' you don't suffer any AoOs from moving. It's DOESN'T say that this is the only case in which that you don't suffer AoO from moving.

Just thought I would point that out.

--Nit-Picky Spikey

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Sorry...when Cloudgatherer (at least spell my name right) said that there is no "one-per-round" rule anywhere in the PHB, if Arty hadn't corrected it, some one(like me) would have. If CGs entire "proof" is based on there is no one per round, then it just crumbled.

The three references cited by Artoomis still don't say "thou shalt take only one 5-foot step per round" (or the rough equivalent).

The references cited:

The glossary simply lists the definition with respect to AoO, it does not say you only get one per round.

p. 117 only states if the movement is only 5-feet you do not draw an AoO (similar to the glossary). Artoomis' emphasis on "round" applies to attacks of opportunity vs. movement for the round, not a restriciton on 5-foot steps.

p. 121 references the section specifically on move-equivalent actions (MEAs). It places the "no movement during the round" restriction on the 5-foot step with a MEA. It would appear this is the principle reference for hasted characters only getting a single 5-foot step, but it only applies if said hasted character uses a MEA during his round, which is not always granted.

So where is the rule I'm looking for?

I still contend 5-foot steps are part of actions and not rounds (otherwise my stunned character would get a 5-foot move). The rules support such a position, as it discusses 5-foot steps specifically under the action types: Full-round action, Move Equivalent Action, and Partial Action.

 

[Uller]

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either you take a literal interpretation of the rules and use it in which case our side wins for everything except MEAs, or you do not, in which case you are extrapolating and not REALLY following the rules. You are following what you perceive to be the intent of the rules.

Hey KD,

Can you explain the logic behind allowing multiple 5' steps with partial actions, but not MEAs?

It doesn't make sense that that restriction would be expressly put on MEAs and not partial actions when MEAs take a "smaller" amount of time(as in a normal turn can consist of two MEAs or an MEA and a Partial action, but not two Partials). In fact, a partial action can BE an MEA. In that case, does the one-per-round rule apply or not?

If you can move, ready (trigger) 5' step, drink potion...

Why can't you move, 5' step, drink potion?

If the restriction DOES apply to MEAs that are taken during a partial action, then how does it make since that you can't draw a sword and take a 5' step, but you can cast a spell and take a 5' step?

There are so many inconsistancies, I can't see any other explanation other than the restriction under MEAs was intended to be for all 5' steps all the time...

Yes...even that allows for some strange inconsistancies, but it gets rid of many(and I think my interpritation above leaves for NO inconsistancies...but I may be missing something)

 

[Artoomis]

Spikey: You logic weanie, you

I never said that:

If your entire move for the round [emphaisis added] is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), enemies do not get attacks of opportunity for you moving.

Means

This rule states you can only avoid a movement-related AoO with a 5-foot move if you make no other move besides a 5-foot move.

For that, indeed, is not true.

On the other hand, it is true that if you take more than one 5-foot move, neither one avoids an AoO because your entire move for the round was NOT a 5-foot move. And, since a 5-foot move, by definition, avoids an AoO, neither of these two moves which happen to be 5' is a 5-foot move.

In other words:

We can disregard other means of avoiding movement-related AoOs as they are not relevant to this discussion (tumble, etc.) So, for this discussion only, the only means of avoiding AoOs that is relevant is the 5-foot step


If A (all move = 5'), then B (no AoO), and thefore, if not A (move more than 5') then not B (AoO not avoided).

If C (5' step), then B (no AoO), and therefore, if not B (AoO not avoided) then not C (not a 5' step).

Taking these two together, we have

Not A (move more than 5') then not C (not a 5' step).

Is that easier for you, Spikey? Please feel free to correct my logic to have it make sense with what is obviously my intent.

 

[IceBear]

From the SRD:

Partial Action: As a general rule, a combatant can do as much with a partial action as a combatant could with a standard action minus a move. Typically, a combatant may take a 5-foot step as part of a partial action.

Move-Equivalent Action: Move-equivalent actions take the place of movement in a standard action or take the place of an entire partial action. The combatant can normally also take a 5 foot step.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if this is even on topic anymore, but I wouldn't allow someone to take a 5-foot step if they have already moved in the round, as normally the 5-foot step uses up all their movement for the round, but I would allow a 5-ft step with the free partial action from the haste spell. I just find that easier to keep track of.

IceBear

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Hey KD,

Can you explain the logic behind allowing multiple 5' steps with partial actions, but not MEAs?

While I'm not KD, I understand his point.

Break down of actions:

Full-round Action: Allows a 5-foot step, no conditions.

Partial Action: Allows a 5-foot step if not a MEA, no additional conditions.

Move Equivalent Action: Allows a 5-foot step if and only if "you move no (other) actual distance in the round."

So you have a hasted character. He can use his full round attack, with the 5-foot step. Then he can use his partial to make another attack with an additional 5-foot step. This doesn't break the rules.

However, if said hasted character used a MEA during his round, he's now limited by the above condition and can only take a 5-foot step with a MEA if that is his only movement for the round.

Now what does this mean for AoOs? That's not the issue here and I haven't been arguing about it, only the possibility of taking multiple 5-foot steps in a round.

 

[Uller]

While I'm not KD, I understand his point.

Break down of actions:

Full-round Action: Allows a 5-foot step, no conditions.

Partial Action: Allows a 5-foot step if not a MEA, no additional conditions.

Move Equivalent Action: Allows a 5-foot step if and only if "you move no (other) actual distance in the round."

No...I meant "WHY" would the designers have intended it that way? What logic did they have to limit 5' steps with MEAs, but not Partial actions? Partial actions(even without considering the ramifications of haste and AoOs) are frequently interspersed with moves and MEAs.

Example:
I move 5'(free), pull out my wand of vampric touch(MEA) and ready it and cast it if the wizard casts a spell(Standard).
(On the trigger) Move 5'(free) and cast and touch the wizard(readied partial)...

IMO, this is clearly an abuse of the ready action(that is only possible because of the more "liberal" interpritation of the 5' step rule). Normally the character could not move 10', pull out a wand(or a scroll or anything but a weapon) and use it all in one turn.

KD hinted at it...he mentioned it is so you can't do two MEAs in a single round and move 10'...but then why would it make sense to allow an MEA, a Partial action and move 10'? (and you mentioned that if the Partial is an MEA, the rule applies...why would that be?)