Saiyans and Tyranids

[melonneko]

[qoute]Actually, after speaking with several veteran players, it turns out that we were all wrong.

According to the people I spoke with, a Carnifex would be about 25 feet tall, a Huge creature.

Out of the people I spoke with, I got two people telling me it was 12-15, two telling me 50+, and half a dozen telling me 20-30, so I'm pretty sure this is the accurate number.

It's okay, I know you aren't being rude. Talking with so many people, I came to understand how little detail the game gives to actual size, and that everyone had a different thought. (One guy said that Space Marines are 12 feet tall and a Carnifex is five times that size. The concensus, however, was that Space Marines were about 7 feet tall, and that the Carnifex was 3-4 times bigger.

I myself just compared the Carnifex to an orc. Carnifex is four times bigger, orcs are about 6 feet, so Carnifex is 24 feet.

It would still be an Epic Creature, though, probably about CR 22-30.[/qoute]

what constitutes a veteran player? i mean do as you will, but it's silly imo, to make it over 20 ft tall.

A "weak" Carnifex? No such thing. From what I've read, a Carnifex is born into power.

I'll probably make them about 40-50 HD.

yes, weak carnifex. because there 'are' more powerful carnifex, thats what the mutation abilities are for.
out of curiosity, are you going to design krak missles? cus 4 average damage rolls should take one down.

 

[Anubis]

what constitutes a veteran player? i mean do as you will, but it's silly imo, to make it over 20 ft tall.

People who play tournaments, have played since earlier editions, etc.

I make it over 20 feet tall because it is. The thing is four times the size of a person . . . It is a bit bigger (taller) than the Dreadnought . . . It's as big as a Hive Tyrant . . . And it's bigger than a Lictor, which is bigger than Termagaunts, which are human-sized.

Thus, it must be Huge. Simple.

yes, weak carnifex. because there 'are' more powerful carnifex, thats what the mutation abilities are for.

Just because there are more powerful versions of Carnifex don't make the base weak. The base is very powerful, the mutations are simply moreso. Or does a 90 point creature mean nothing to you?

out of curiosity, are you going to design krak missles? cus 4 average damage rolls should take one down.

I'm only bringing in the Tyranids from the codex, nothing else from the game.

 

[Broken Fang]

Ok...a marine in Terminator or powered armor measures ~34mm from the top of its base to its head, a Carnifex measures ~65mm (2x marine height...but it somewhat hunched over). I measured from top of base beacuse the bases are of different height. I would place this in the HUGE category only because of 3rd ed rule design (15')....LARGE is 10'...GARGANTUAN is 20', but I wouldn't classify them as that.

I have a Dread, Tyrant, Lictor, marines, gaunts, guardsman, etc. and the problem is the figure size is pretty uniform . SM, terminators, guardsman are all the same size, gaunts are shorter but long (I would still call them MEDIUM sized). Tyrants would also fall in the HUGE category, while Lictors, Tyrant Guard, Raveners, and Warriors would fall in LARGE. Genestealers, Guants, and Gargoyles are all MEDIUM. Everything I can find in the Tyranid codex and the books would suggest the above when converting into 3rd ed...at least in my opinion. And though I do have a Tyranid, SM, and Choas SM army in 40K, the Bugs were my first and are still my favorite.

The base mutable stock of a Carnifex is pretty powerful, but less so than the normal version. The actual changes are not that great between them just more customizable (ie. you can still only have Str 9-10, Wounds don't change, etc).

I think the Bug CR's would look something like this (and this is a really quick throw together):
Gaunts............CR 3
Gargoyles.......CR 6
Genestealers..CR 6
Raveners........CR 9
Tyrant Guard..CR 9
Warriors.........CR 12
Lictors............CR 12
Carnifex.........CR 18
Tyrant............CR 18

The more we talk about it the more I want to convert them...maybe after this weekend...have lots of yard work to do in the morning and then its game time. Sunday is church and finish the yardwork. Maybe next week....cuz next weekend we are going camping. Sheesh...busy busy busy!

 

[Anubis]

Ok...a marine in Terminator or powered armor measures ~34mm from the top of its base to its head, a Carnifex measures ~65mm (2x marine height...but it somewhat hunched over). I measured from top of base beacuse the bases are of different height. I would place this in the HUGE category only because of 3rd ed rule design (15')....LARGE is 10'...GARGANTUAN is 20', but I wouldn't classify them as that.

I have a Dread, Tyrant, Lictor, marines, gaunts, guardsman, etc. and the problem is the figure size is pretty uniform . SM, terminators, guardsman are all the same size, gaunts are shorter but long (I would still call them MEDIUM sized). Tyrants would also fall in the HUGE category, while Lictors, Tyrant Guard, Raveners, and Warriors would fall in LARGE. Genestealers, Guants, and Gargoyles are all MEDIUM. Everything I can find in the Tyranid codex and the books would suggest the above when converting into 3rd ed...at least in my opinion. And though I do have a Tyranid, SM, and Choas SM army in 40K, the Bugs were my first and are still my favorite.

The base mutable stock of a Carnifex is pretty powerful, but less so than the normal version. The actual changes are not that great between them just more customizable (ie. you can still only have Str 9-10, Wounds don't change, etc).

I think the Bug CR's would look something like this (and this is a really quick throw together):
Gaunts............CR 3
Gargoyles.......CR 6
Genestealers..CR 6
Raveners........CR 9
Tyrant Guard..CR 9
Warriors.........CR 12
Lictors............CR 12
Carnifex.........CR 18
Tyrant............CR 18

The more we talk about it the more I want to convert them...maybe after this weekend...have lots of yard work to do in the morning and then its game time. Sunday is church and finish the yardwork. Maybe next week....cuz next weekend we are going camping. Sheesh...busy busy busy!

I would still say the Carnifex and the Hive Tyrant would be Epic. These things can rip tanks apart in a very high-tech setting, so they're be an enormous challenge for adventurer's wielding sword and the like.

This would be my base suggestion, which will no doubt be changed upon actually making these things. I will include what sizes I consider them.

Ripper (S) = CR 1
Termagaunt (M) = CR 2
Hormagaunt (M) = CR 3
Gargoyles (M) = CR 5
Biovore (M) = CR 10
Genestealer (M) = CR 7
Raveners (L) = CR 13
Tyrant Guard (L) = CR 11
Tyranid Warriors (L) = CR 11
Lictor (L) = CR 18
Zoanthrope (L) = CR 16
Carnifex (H) = CR 24
Hive Tyrant (H) = CR 28

Like I said, these are subject to change. This is my current opinion of them. Actually, I'm waiting to finish my work on the Saiyans before starting on the Tyranids, because the Saiyans are A LOT more work.

 

[Broken Fang]

The problem here is that a genestealer can rip apart a tank in 40K...I have done it! You can't convert the game mechanics from 40K straight to 3rd ed. My best bet is use the codex and fluff to make the conversion w/o actually looking at the game setting. A dragon is CR 20, that is about the level I would place the Carnifex and Tyrant.

And the Lictor really is not worth anywhere near the points they cost in the game. They are to easy to avoid and kill...though their special abilities make them more impressive in 3rd ed thats is why I kept them equal to Warriors.

The super big (Epic) bugs would all fall under the Epic rules though. Again...to each his own I guess.

 

[Anubis]

The problem here is that a genestealer can rip apart a tank in 40K...I have done it! You can't convert the game mechanics from 40K straight to 3rd ed. My best bet is use the codex and fluff to make the conversion w/o actually looking at the game setting. A dragon is CR 20, that is about the level I would place the Carnifex and Tyrant.

And the Lictor really is not worth anywhere near the points they cost in the game. They are to easy to avoid and kill...though their special abilities make them more impressive in 3rd ed thats is why I kept them equal to Warriors.

The super big (Epic) bugs would all fall under the Epic rules though. Again...to each his own I guess.

Well, I'm basing all of my stats on 3rd edition rules, if that helps tell you where I'm coming from.

Also, I'm only using the Codex, not the other stuff, although that's an option for the future.

The reason I placed Carnifex/Hive Tyrant so high is because several players who played both games told me a Carnifex could hold his own against a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and that is almost CR 30, meaning if anything, my Carnifex is too low on power right now.

Also realize that I use a revised version of UK's ECL rules, which we are currently debating in the "Revised ECL Rules" thread, because the core rules break down very quickly with regards to CR/ECL. Go take a look.

 

[Keia]

Maybe we should split the Tyranids out into their own thread for ease of referencing, etc.

The CR's seem reasonable, but its probably better to build the critter then develop the CR from there.

 

[Daelin_Farseer]

I cannot imagine what would lead anyone to believe that a Carnifex, or even a Hive Tyrant for that matter, could somehow be equivalent to or better than a Great [any color] Wyrm.

There are severe limitations in granularity when dealing with the GW 10-point scale for attributes versus the wider scales used in D&D, not the least of which is that stats in GW games are specificially and directly opposed by other stats (S vs T, for example). It should be readily apparent to all of us that Str and Con don't directly counter each other, even if it is merely because you only get the bonus HP applied once...when you level..you get the Str bonus applied each and every time you attack.

Putting all of that together suggests to me that just because the good ol' Carnifex has a 9-10 S score and your average GW fantasy dragon (which are usually unimpressive beasts nowhere to scale with D&D dragons) has an average T of 6-ish (total guess on my part, I admit) the carnifex is the superior of any dragon.

IMHO, the earlier poster, putting the Carnifex and HT at around CR 18, would be closer to correct. It should take either tremendous firepower (which it does), or a character/group of near epic proportions to stand up to a single 'fex.

 

[Anubis]

Maybe we should split the Tyranids out into their own thread for ease of referencing, etc.

Good idea. When I'm ready for the next update to the Saiyans, I'll make a new thread for that.

Then when I start statting the Tyranids, I'll post a new thread there as well.