Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale (was: Emergent Features in KotS)
- Thread starter LostSoul
- Start date
pukunui
Legend
Nice! I can't wait to read about your group's experiences with H2.
My group found the hooks I planted for H2 last session (I've modified things so that Kalarel is actually a cultist of Vecna working with Paldemar -- they're trying to trick Orcus into giving them access to his sanctuary on the other side of the rift in order to claim it for Vecna instead. Anyway, the Bloodreavers found out about this somehow and sent emissaries to try to blackmail Kalarel but he figured Paldemar would be able to discredit any blackmail attempts back at the Hall so he had the emissaries killed.). The only problem is that a number of my players are aware of the names of the modules, and when one of them saw that Thunderspire was mentioned, he blurted out "That's the name of the next module!" Sigh ...
My group found the hooks I planted for H2 last session (I've modified things so that Kalarel is actually a cultist of Vecna working with Paldemar -- they're trying to trick Orcus into giving them access to his sanctuary on the other side of the rift in order to claim it for Vecna instead. Anyway, the Bloodreavers found out about this somehow and sent emissaries to try to blackmail Kalarel but he figured Paldemar would be able to discredit any blackmail attempts back at the Hall so he had the emissaries killed.). The only problem is that a number of my players are aware of the names of the modules, and when one of them saw that Thunderspire was mentioned, he blurted out "That's the name of the next module!" Sigh ...
LostSoul
Adventurer
We got on to Thunderspire Labyrinth last night.
The guy who was most invested in taking over Winterhaven was away last night, so we decided (as a group) to put off the "a knight rides into town and asks what the hell Padraig is doing in jail" encounter.
I did stat up an encounter, though, making up a new monster. It's easy to do - took no time at all. I just asked myself what kinds of things this guy could do, and what level of adversity he would pose. Here are his stats if you're interested:
[sblock=Knight of Nerath]Knight of Nerath Level 8 Elite Soldier
Large humanoid, human XP 700
Initiative +9 Senses Perception +7
HP 184; Bloodied 92
AC 25; Fortitude 23, Reflex 20, Will 22
Saving Throws +1
Speed 5
Action Points 1
m Spear (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+15 vs. AC; 2d6+5 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the knight's next turn.
M Hoof Smash (standard; at-will )
Requires warhorse; +13 vs. Ref; 1d8+5 damage, and the target is pushed one square and falls prone. The knight may shift into the space.
Brutal Charge (standard; at-will; on charge only)
Requires warhorse; the knight charges and makes a spear and hoof smash attack.
Shield Block (immediate interrupt, when hit by a melee attack; encounter)
The knight forces a re-roll, taking the second value, and gains a +2 to AC and Reflex until the end of his next turn.
Grim Determination (immediate reaction, when first bloodied; encounter)
The knight gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Mounted
Requires warhorse; the knight gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, a +2 bonus to Athletics and Endurance, and his speed is increased to 8.
Alignment Unaligned Languages Common
Skills Athletics +14, Endurance +14, Intimidate +12
Str +9 Dex +7 Wis +7
Con +9 Int +7 Cha +7
Equipment plate mail, spear, shield, warhorse[/sblock]
So I went around the table, asking each player what his PC was doing. We ran a short scene for each PC:
All the PCs eventually crossed paths in the graveyard. And they spotted some hobgoblins lurking around. What I'm going to do is introduce most plot points through combat scenes. It's D&D after all.
The hobgoblins were Bloodreaver slavers from Thunderspire who were looking for their brothers. There was a short, brutal fight (and two of the Entourage went down, but were brought up into fighting form with some Heal checks after the fight) and the PCs won. They tried to get the commander to talk, but he told them to... erm, "get lost", and Wexley the Fighter snapped his neck.
Luckily he had a note on him. So off to Thunderspire. As an added hook, one of the Entourage said his pa was taken by slavers and he wants to go and rescue him.
Into Thunderspire. I described the main passage using imagery from the movie version of Lord of the Rings - the Moria scene. The PCs decided not to head down the main passage, and they wandered around the minotaur-made passages.
And soon they got lost (15 on the Dungeoneering check). Armok knew a thing or two about minotaur construction, but the route he took them along was caved in. So they decided to wait until a "guide" came by.
That guide came in the form of some (randomly-generated) Crusaders of Torog - a bunch of stinky troglodytes and an angel of valour. I described the angel of valour as a lump of flesh, covered in green bile, open sores, and maggots, eyes and mouths popping open and bursting at random.
The Warlock Jace gave them a nice line about being a worshipper of Torog himself, and they needed his help because he was sick. They believed his lies but were confused - why didn't he give off the aura of Torog (the trog stench), why did he need help if he was gifted by Torog (the illness), etc.
He bluffed again (no roll needed, same original successful roll), saying that he wanted help to spread the gift and infect others.
And then the wizard cast his daily on them and the fight took off.
And what a fight! It was great. The fighter moved out in front, got beaten down, came back, got beaten again. But through some nice tactics and effects, the PCs prevailed.
I did have one trog try to trip the Warlock who was shifting - casting, the bastard! even though it wasn't on his statblock, but he failed. Other than that, it was pretty much by-the-numbers. Good fight, though.
They tried to intimidate the last two trogs, but only got one (the other they killed right away). The captured trog's small brain couldn't understand why they were attacked - weren't they all worshippers of Torog? (The original bluff roll, still in effect.) The PCs gave him a line about this whole thing being a test. The trog was happy he was found worthy and asked when the maggots on the genitals - the standard rite of Torog - would begin.
"Um, later."
They took the map tattooed on the arm of the curse chanter - well, they took the skin - and went back into the dungeon with a guide.
That's where we ended. I talked with one player about random encounters, resource management, and how hard it is to take down a PC with access to all his healing surges. I like the fact that this module has random encounters which makes resting more difficult.
The players asked about clearing out sections so they could rest safely... I'm not sure how I will handle that. Any ideas?
The guy who was most invested in taking over Winterhaven was away last night, so we decided (as a group) to put off the "a knight rides into town and asks what the hell Padraig is doing in jail" encounter.
I did stat up an encounter, though, making up a new monster. It's easy to do - took no time at all. I just asked myself what kinds of things this guy could do, and what level of adversity he would pose. Here are his stats if you're interested:
[sblock=Knight of Nerath]Knight of Nerath Level 8 Elite Soldier
Large humanoid, human XP 700
Initiative +9 Senses Perception +7
HP 184; Bloodied 92
AC 25; Fortitude 23, Reflex 20, Will 22
Saving Throws +1
Speed 5
Action Points 1
m Spear (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+15 vs. AC; 2d6+5 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the knight's next turn.
M Hoof Smash (standard; at-will )
Requires warhorse; +13 vs. Ref; 1d8+5 damage, and the target is pushed one square and falls prone. The knight may shift into the space.
Brutal Charge (standard; at-will; on charge only)
Requires warhorse; the knight charges and makes a spear and hoof smash attack.
Shield Block (immediate interrupt, when hit by a melee attack; encounter)
The knight forces a re-roll, taking the second value, and gains a +2 to AC and Reflex until the end of his next turn.
Grim Determination (immediate reaction, when first bloodied; encounter)
The knight gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Mounted
Requires warhorse; the knight gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, a +2 bonus to Athletics and Endurance, and his speed is increased to 8.
Alignment Unaligned Languages Common
Skills Athletics +14, Endurance +14, Intimidate +12
Str +9 Dex +7 Wis +7
Con +9 Int +7 Cha +7
Equipment plate mail, spear, shield, warhorse[/sblock]
So I went around the table, asking each player what his PC was doing. We ran a short scene for each PC:
- The Wizard (Armok) was surveying the graveyard for a future location for his tower. Now that all the corpses have risen and been blasted, it's not much of a graveyard.
He got the aid of Thain Coalstriker, who said, "I'm not an engineer, but if I were, this is what I would do..." and rattled off some engineering jargon. He also wanted to build down, not up, and couldn't understand why someone would build up - it's defenseless! - The Fighter (Wexley) was busy getting drunk and tending to his wounds, practicing with his sword.
- The Rogue (Bren the Bold) was out in the fields training his Entourage how to fight better. He's in a Skill Challenge to turn these guys from Minions into "real" monsters.
The halflings were doing fine, shooting with their slings, but the human wasn't doing so well. The Rogue, a halfling himself, tried to show him how to fight, but he only knows halfling stances, and not human ones. The human couldn't get it, and gave up in disgust, heading off to drink with the Fighter. - The Warlock (Jace) went to the temple to talk with Sister Linora. He wanted to find out some information about the devil with whom he made his pact. Sister Linora said that she could find out about him, but she'd need the heart of a devil or the pinfeathers of an angel. (Instead of the 400 gp for Consult Mystic Sages.)
She also told him that he should just accept it and not go off and get himself into more trouble. "I see pain and death along this path." "Yeah, that's anyone who gets in my way."
All the PCs eventually crossed paths in the graveyard. And they spotted some hobgoblins lurking around. What I'm going to do is introduce most plot points through combat scenes. It's D&D after all.
The hobgoblins were Bloodreaver slavers from Thunderspire who were looking for their brothers. There was a short, brutal fight (and two of the Entourage went down, but were brought up into fighting form with some Heal checks after the fight) and the PCs won. They tried to get the commander to talk, but he told them to... erm, "get lost", and Wexley the Fighter snapped his neck.
Luckily he had a note on him. So off to Thunderspire. As an added hook, one of the Entourage said his pa was taken by slavers and he wants to go and rescue him.
Into Thunderspire. I described the main passage using imagery from the movie version of Lord of the Rings - the Moria scene. The PCs decided not to head down the main passage, and they wandered around the minotaur-made passages.
And soon they got lost (15 on the Dungeoneering check). Armok knew a thing or two about minotaur construction, but the route he took them along was caved in. So they decided to wait until a "guide" came by.
That guide came in the form of some (randomly-generated) Crusaders of Torog - a bunch of stinky troglodytes and an angel of valour. I described the angel of valour as a lump of flesh, covered in green bile, open sores, and maggots, eyes and mouths popping open and bursting at random.
The Warlock Jace gave them a nice line about being a worshipper of Torog himself, and they needed his help because he was sick. They believed his lies but were confused - why didn't he give off the aura of Torog (the trog stench), why did he need help if he was gifted by Torog (the illness), etc.
He bluffed again (no roll needed, same original successful roll), saying that he wanted help to spread the gift and infect others.
And then the wizard cast his daily on them and the fight took off.
And what a fight! It was great. The fighter moved out in front, got beaten down, came back, got beaten again. But through some nice tactics and effects, the PCs prevailed.
I did have one trog try to trip the Warlock who was shifting - casting, the bastard! even though it wasn't on his statblock, but he failed. Other than that, it was pretty much by-the-numbers. Good fight, though.
They tried to intimidate the last two trogs, but only got one (the other they killed right away). The captured trog's small brain couldn't understand why they were attacked - weren't they all worshippers of Torog? (The original bluff roll, still in effect.) The PCs gave him a line about this whole thing being a test. The trog was happy he was found worthy and asked when the maggots on the genitals - the standard rite of Torog - would begin.
"Um, later."
They took the map tattooed on the arm of the curse chanter - well, they took the skin - and went back into the dungeon with a guide.
That's where we ended. I talked with one player about random encounters, resource management, and how hard it is to take down a PC with access to all his healing surges. I like the fact that this module has random encounters which makes resting more difficult.
The players asked about clearing out sections so they could rest safely... I'm not sure how I will handle that. Any ideas?
Last edited:
vagabundo
Adventurer
RE: Resting in thunderspire.
I think some of the mapped areas could be used as rest areas once they are cleared and possibly fortified. The Duergar fortress springs to mind.
The adventure does mention that the tunnels connecting areas are filled with small side areas and corridors. They could be mapped out and possibly defended. Not that I'd like to sleep in a cold, lightless tunnel.
I think some of the mapped areas could be used as rest areas once they are cleared and possibly fortified. The Duergar fortress springs to mind.
The adventure does mention that the tunnels connecting areas are filled with small side areas and corridors. They could be mapped out and possibly defended. Not that I'd like to sleep in a cold, lightless tunnel.
pukunui
Legend
But you're not a battle-hardened adventurer! Those guys are used to that kind of thing!
LostSoul
Adventurer
From last Thursday's game:
After having defeated the Crusaders of Torog, the PCs began to interrogate their captive. He told them how he came to the Seven-Pillared Hall - a long, circuitous route that went through "the devil-dwarves' Horned Hold. We had to trade slaves with them in order to get through."
Oh, slaves? Everyone perks up. Take us to them!
"It's a long trip, but the scent-trail should be strong enough."
Scent-trail? They figure out what this is when their troglodyte guide starts smelling his way deeper into the mountain.
After descending a long staircase, he tells them that some of his friends are waiting in a nearby chamber. The PCs enter and see a pair of troglodyte maulers. The Warlock fails a Bluff check, and we roll init.
The guide doesn't know what to do at first, but he's commanded to charge - and he gets swatted down by the maulers.
The Rogue slips around for a good shot but is suddenly attacked by tentacles emerging from the gloom of the vaulted chamber! A grell descends on him.
In the fight, the Rogue and Wizard are pounded, the Warlock nearly dies, but the grell can't seem to hit with his poison beak and the PCs prevail. The grell escapes, however, flying deeper into the labyrinth.
I described the walls as weak, masonry chipping, and each missed ranged attack knocking pieces off, but no one used the terrain feature - rockslide! I should have used it myself, or made it explicit. Oh well, next time.
The PCs, beaten and bruised, head back to the main hall. They head towards the Seven-Pillared Hall and whatever passes itself off as civilization in this evil place.
On the way there, they hear some hobgoblins taunting a halfing. The Rogue slowly sneaks up, opens the door, and nearly kills one of the warriors with a quick dagger throw. In response, the hobgoblins slam the door shut and bar it. This gives the hobgoblins time to form a defensive line, as well as time to stab the halfing.
The PCs burst in - Rogue first, who gets a bunch of Readied actions. Pulled behind the lines from the hobgoblin warcaster's force lure, he gets smashed badly. But the Fighter leads the charge to the front, and the Warlord buys the Rogue enough time to slip onto the large casks, away from the hobgoblin's flails.
After that, the PCs cleaned up. Restil the halfling survived the stabbing, and introduced himself to the group. He knows Finn and Neb, two of the Rogue's halfling Entourage, from a night of drinking in Fallcrest. Restil tells them he runs an inn down here, and with that news, the PCs don't need a guide who stinks worse than an open grave used as an outhouse. The trog guide dies.
In the Seven-Pillared Hall, Brugg the Ogre asks for a tax for all the suits of armour the PCs looted off the hobgoblins. The Wizard bluffs his way in, passing himself off as one of the Mages of Saruun. No tax today!
The PCs rest. Malchior The Warlord is approached by an old friend, a Mage of Saruun named Orontar. He tells Malchior that Malchior's uncle Paldemar, a Mage of Saruun, has gone missing. Last seen in the cisterns, nearby the temple of Torog.
The map tattooed on the flesh of the curse chanter is pulled out, and a quick deal is worked out for it (a treasure package, the PCs are low on funds). Orontar tells them they will assault the trogs who have been plaguing the Hall, and the PCs ask to join. They're given a few days to rest.
The Rogue and Warlock head out to sell some goods and end up trading with the duergar "devil-dwarves". The duergar offer 8 gp for the 4 suits of scale, and the Rogue declines and leaves.
The duergar ask the Warlock to hang around, as they can sense the Infernal Pact. They offer him a job, if he can prove himself worthy - a pitfight with Brugg. He agrees.
The next evening, the Fighter challenges Brugg to a pitfight. Brugg wants to fight without armour and weapons, but the Fighter calls him a pansy afraid to get cut, and Brugg accepts the fight to the death.
Odds are given for the match: 2-1 for Brugg. That changes to 3-2 once the Wizard and the Warlord put down 300 or so gp on the Fighter. The winner of the match gets the trophy: the head of the last champion!
We draw the map up quickly, adding a pit or two, chains that hang down over it, a chained deathjump spider in one corner of the pit, and a caged animal in another. Each combatant enters and the fight's on.
Brugg charges, smashing the Fighter, who pushes Brugg into the big pit; Brugg grabs onto the chains and swings around, knocking the fighter back a square, into the corner.
The duergar, watching the fight, zap the Fighter with a psychic ray. The Warlock asks, "What the hell?" "Your friend is good. Let's see how good. If he can survive, even with the odds against him, we'll know you can put together a good team and we'll accept you."
The crowd cheers as Brugg gets a few good hits in, but the Fighter responds in kind. Things aren't looking good for Brugg, so a goblin shoots at the Fighter with a poison dart. The Warlord and the Rogue make sure he doesn't do that again.
Brugg moves into the corner, and the Fighter is closest to the deathjump spider. The owner of the bar releases it (yes, the fix is in!) and the spider jumps on the Fighter's back. But the Wizard knows a thing or two about spiders (i.e. successful nature check); he knows that they feed on vermin, rats especially. So he covers Brugg in an illusory rat swarm, and the spider switches targets.
The fight doesn't last long after that. The Fighter does not kill Brugg, so he does not get Brugg's head, but he does get the last trophy. He hitches it to his belt and looks scarier than ever (+2 bonus to Intimidate checks).
That was that. The pitfight was cool because we got everyone involved, but we didn't use as much terrain as I would have liked. I should have given Brugg some kind of Push-ing attacks. Oh well.
After having defeated the Crusaders of Torog, the PCs began to interrogate their captive. He told them how he came to the Seven-Pillared Hall - a long, circuitous route that went through "the devil-dwarves' Horned Hold. We had to trade slaves with them in order to get through."
Oh, slaves? Everyone perks up. Take us to them!
"It's a long trip, but the scent-trail should be strong enough."
Scent-trail? They figure out what this is when their troglodyte guide starts smelling his way deeper into the mountain.
After descending a long staircase, he tells them that some of his friends are waiting in a nearby chamber. The PCs enter and see a pair of troglodyte maulers. The Warlock fails a Bluff check, and we roll init.
The guide doesn't know what to do at first, but he's commanded to charge - and he gets swatted down by the maulers.
The Rogue slips around for a good shot but is suddenly attacked by tentacles emerging from the gloom of the vaulted chamber! A grell descends on him.
In the fight, the Rogue and Wizard are pounded, the Warlock nearly dies, but the grell can't seem to hit with his poison beak and the PCs prevail. The grell escapes, however, flying deeper into the labyrinth.
I described the walls as weak, masonry chipping, and each missed ranged attack knocking pieces off, but no one used the terrain feature - rockslide! I should have used it myself, or made it explicit. Oh well, next time.
The PCs, beaten and bruised, head back to the main hall. They head towards the Seven-Pillared Hall and whatever passes itself off as civilization in this evil place.
On the way there, they hear some hobgoblins taunting a halfing. The Rogue slowly sneaks up, opens the door, and nearly kills one of the warriors with a quick dagger throw. In response, the hobgoblins slam the door shut and bar it. This gives the hobgoblins time to form a defensive line, as well as time to stab the halfing.
The PCs burst in - Rogue first, who gets a bunch of Readied actions. Pulled behind the lines from the hobgoblin warcaster's force lure, he gets smashed badly. But the Fighter leads the charge to the front, and the Warlord buys the Rogue enough time to slip onto the large casks, away from the hobgoblin's flails.
After that, the PCs cleaned up. Restil the halfling survived the stabbing, and introduced himself to the group. He knows Finn and Neb, two of the Rogue's halfling Entourage, from a night of drinking in Fallcrest. Restil tells them he runs an inn down here, and with that news, the PCs don't need a guide who stinks worse than an open grave used as an outhouse. The trog guide dies.
In the Seven-Pillared Hall, Brugg the Ogre asks for a tax for all the suits of armour the PCs looted off the hobgoblins. The Wizard bluffs his way in, passing himself off as one of the Mages of Saruun. No tax today!
The PCs rest. Malchior The Warlord is approached by an old friend, a Mage of Saruun named Orontar. He tells Malchior that Malchior's uncle Paldemar, a Mage of Saruun, has gone missing. Last seen in the cisterns, nearby the temple of Torog.
The map tattooed on the flesh of the curse chanter is pulled out, and a quick deal is worked out for it (a treasure package, the PCs are low on funds). Orontar tells them they will assault the trogs who have been plaguing the Hall, and the PCs ask to join. They're given a few days to rest.
The Rogue and Warlock head out to sell some goods and end up trading with the duergar "devil-dwarves". The duergar offer 8 gp for the 4 suits of scale, and the Rogue declines and leaves.
The duergar ask the Warlock to hang around, as they can sense the Infernal Pact. They offer him a job, if he can prove himself worthy - a pitfight with Brugg. He agrees.
The next evening, the Fighter challenges Brugg to a pitfight. Brugg wants to fight without armour and weapons, but the Fighter calls him a pansy afraid to get cut, and Brugg accepts the fight to the death.
Odds are given for the match: 2-1 for Brugg. That changes to 3-2 once the Wizard and the Warlord put down 300 or so gp on the Fighter. The winner of the match gets the trophy: the head of the last champion!
We draw the map up quickly, adding a pit or two, chains that hang down over it, a chained deathjump spider in one corner of the pit, and a caged animal in another. Each combatant enters and the fight's on.
Brugg charges, smashing the Fighter, who pushes Brugg into the big pit; Brugg grabs onto the chains and swings around, knocking the fighter back a square, into the corner.
The duergar, watching the fight, zap the Fighter with a psychic ray. The Warlock asks, "What the hell?" "Your friend is good. Let's see how good. If he can survive, even with the odds against him, we'll know you can put together a good team and we'll accept you."
The crowd cheers as Brugg gets a few good hits in, but the Fighter responds in kind. Things aren't looking good for Brugg, so a goblin shoots at the Fighter with a poison dart. The Warlord and the Rogue make sure he doesn't do that again.
Brugg moves into the corner, and the Fighter is closest to the deathjump spider. The owner of the bar releases it (yes, the fix is in!) and the spider jumps on the Fighter's back. But the Wizard knows a thing or two about spiders (i.e. successful nature check); he knows that they feed on vermin, rats especially. So he covers Brugg in an illusory rat swarm, and the spider switches targets.
The fight doesn't last long after that. The Fighter does not kill Brugg, so he does not get Brugg's head, but he does get the last trophy. He hitches it to his belt and looks scarier than ever (+2 bonus to Intimidate checks).
That was that. The pitfight was cool because we got everyone involved, but we didn't use as much terrain as I would have liked. I should have given Brugg some kind of Push-ing attacks. Oh well.
pukunui
Legend
Awesome stuff as usual, LostSoul.
Quick question: Did you do anything special/different in terms of the PCs gaining entrance to Thunderspire or did you pretty much just let them find the entrance and head in?
The reason I'm asking is because I need to make it more of a secret entrance. The minotaur fighter in my party has got it in his backstory that his father spent his life trying to find the lost city of Saruun Khel but he never did, so I need to make it hard to get in ...
Some of my ideas:
a) A Mines of Moria style "hidden entrance" (skill challenge?)
b) Have the PCs get escorted in "blindfolded" (easy way out
)
c) Move the opening Bloodreaver encounter outdoors and have Restil escort the PCs inside, revealing the "secret entrance" without the PCs having to figure it out themselves but making it apparent that this was why the minotaur's father was never able to find it himself ...
Quick question: Did you do anything special/different in terms of the PCs gaining entrance to Thunderspire or did you pretty much just let them find the entrance and head in?
The reason I'm asking is because I need to make it more of a secret entrance. The minotaur fighter in my party has got it in his backstory that his father spent his life trying to find the lost city of Saruun Khel but he never did, so I need to make it hard to get in ...
Some of my ideas:
a) A Mines of Moria style "hidden entrance" (skill challenge?)
b) Have the PCs get escorted in "blindfolded" (easy way out
)c) Move the opening Bloodreaver encounter outdoors and have Restil escort the PCs inside, revealing the "secret entrance" without the PCs having to figure it out themselves but making it apparent that this was why the minotaur's father was never able to find it himself ...
LostSoul
Adventurer
Awesome stuff as usual, LostSoul.
Quick question: Did you do anything special/different in terms of the PCs gaining entrance to Thunderspire or did you pretty much just let them find the entrance and head in?
The reason I'm asking is because I need to make it more of a secret entrance. The minotaur fighter in my party has got it in his backstory that his father spent his life trying to find the lost city of Saruun Khel but he never did, so I need to make it hard to get in ...
Some of my ideas:
a) A Mines of Moria style "hidden entrance" (skill challenge?)
b) Have the PCs get escorted in "blindfolded" (easy way out
c) Move the opening Bloodreaver encounter outdoors and have Restil escort the PCs inside, revealing the "secret entrance" without the PCs having to figure it out themselves but making it apparent that this was why the minotaur's father was never able to find it himself ...
They just went right in; they made some good knowledge checks about Thunderspire and the Mages of Saruun (which got fed back into the backstory of one of the PCs - Malchior the Warlord, multiclassed Wizard, who has friends and an uncle in the organization).
I am thinking about putting the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd in there, maybe on Paldamar, as an heirloom of Malchior's noble family. I'll re-fluff it, or Arnd.
So, to answer the question: how difficult should it be to get in? I think it depends on how much time you want to spend on it.
If it's a big deal to you and your group then I'd make it a full adventure, maybe a session or two. The adventure needs to end with the PCs finding the entrance to Thunderspire, so make that easy to discover. However, I'd make the adventure resolve some other kind of issue, or bring in a complication.
What I'm thinking is that the adventure takes place in your minotaur PC's father's tomb. Maybe it's been defiled by Vecna, keeper of secrets. Maybe the PC's father switched to worship of Vecna in his final days in order to discover the entrance, but the twisted lies of Vecna meant that he died once he discovered the secret. Now he's a ghost, angry and bitter.
The adventure resolves that - will the PCs be able to end Vecna's curse on him, or will he still be obsessed with finding Thunderspire? Either way he will tell the PCs where it is.
I'm thinking a cool intelligent magic item, maybe artifact-level, that holds his soul will guide the PCs into Thunderspire. +2 to Dungeoneering checks sounds like a good bonus.
If it's not that big a deal, a skill challenge would be a good way to approach it. I'd probably just copy the Moria scene; the PCs will eventually break through, but will they be able to get in before that lurker in the water attacks them? Will it break the entrance so that no one can get in or out that way?
Whatever you do, don't make it easy to get in. Even if the PCs just get really lucky it's better than if they do something simple to get access. If you make it too easy, the PC's father is going to look like an idiot, and that means that the PC's own image will be tarnished.
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